Insect Repellents..."DEET vs. The World"

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Andrew said:
Is Permethrin considered lowest toxic only when used as directed (clothing only) or actually if it comes in contact with skin etc? -The warnings on the package freaked me out in the past.
Permethrin was tested on the skin of laboratory animals. It's the active ingredient in some head lice shampoos. Many mammals including humans, dogs, rats, and horses have a very high tolerance for it. As I said before, it is highly toxic to cats.

Andrew said:
Vice versa the brand of Geranium Oil I have makes it seem almost as safe as finger paint!
Most, if not all, of the Essential Oils are EPA and FDA exempt. Since there is so little regulation of them, they can make most any claim they what....Much like the so called Natural Health Products.
 
.....And finally...

Thanks NH Mtn Hiker for doing so much homework on this and sharing your findings in such a comprehensive method, especially taking time to answer these specific questions.
 
I recall seeing an article once about DEET and how effective the percentage concentrations were in the various bug sprays that were available. I remember reading that using 100% DEET (like using SPF 30 sunscreens) doesn't give you twice as much effectiveness as 50% DEET. In fact, I believe this article said that using 30% DEET was NEARLY as effective as 100% DEET, especially when measured in terms of hours of effectiveness. I am not totally positive, but the difference in time was only about 30 to 60 minutes longer with 100% as with 30%.
 
On Saturday, I did approximately 8 hours of yard work, many in/near the garden which is adjacent to a wooded area. On Sunday I did nearly the same work.

On Satuday, I used the kid's bug dope - 25% DEET and after some sweating and brow wiping (a few hours), the bugs were finding me.

On Sunday, I used the hiking spray - 100% DEET and don't recall being pestered at all.

Sunday was a bit breezier, but otherwise conditions were similar. The breeze would have blown my scent towards the woods.

For reference, in the evening if I go out on my deck, it takes about 60-90 seconds for the first mosquito to find me from the woods - 50 -100' away.

Take away from this what you will...

Oh, and I wore a treated bandanna (Permethrin) on my head both days and didn't get any scalp bites.

Tim
 
bikehikeskifish said:
... For reference, in the evening if I go out on my deck, it takes about 60-90 seconds for the first mosquito to find me from the woods - 50 -100' away.

Take away from this what you will...

Oh, and I wore a treated bandanna (Permethrin) on my head both days and didn't get any scalp bites.

Tim
FWIW - As I recall, mosquitos find us based upon our carbon dioxide emissions. If you can keep moving it follows that it makes the job of tracking you more difficult. Also, I seem to recall that black flies find their prey based upon increased heat - not CO2 emissions, so that might be the reason it's harder to 'out run' them.
 
Kevin Rooney said:
FWIW - As I recall, mosquitos find us based upon our carbon dioxide emissions. If you can keep moving it follows that it makes the job of tracking you more difficult. Also, I seem to recall that black flies find their prey based upon increased heat - not CO2 emissions, so that might be the reason it's harder to 'out run' them.

I'm not sure of each species tracking ability, but I do know that they use one or both of those signatures to find their dinner. The LNG mosquito traps use the CO2 signature for sure, not sure about heat.

Being 6'3" and 200# I output a lot of heat and a lot of CO2. My whole family can be out on the deck for a while, and when I come out it doesn't take long for the "Aw Dad, you brought the [mosquitoes, blackflies]" to begin.

Tim
 
LittleBear said:
I recall seeing an article once about DEET and how effective the percentage concentrations were in the various bug sprays that were available. I remember reading that using 100% DEET (like using SPF 30 sunscreens) doesn't give you twice as much effectiveness as 50% DEET. In fact, I believe this article said that using 30% DEET was NEARLY as effective as 100% DEET, especially when measured in terms of hours of effectiveness. I am not totally positive, but the difference in time was only about 30 to 60 minutes longer with 100% as with 30%.
I find myself "sweating out" the 30% DEET a whole lot faster than the 100% (I use Bens 100). The more oily it is, the longer it seems to stay with me. I can usually hike or work outside for 8 hours before reapplying 100% DEET, whereas I only get 2-3 hours out of the 30%.

The drawback to the greasy nature of higher concentrations: It's like basting your body before cooking it. The effects of sun exposure are a lot worse when I'm "all lathered up". Several years ago I worked on the rebuild of Rt. 201 through Caratunk, ME during the late srping. Wearing Bens 100 I got cooked to a dark brown during my 3 days up there, but I was one of only a few not bothered by the swarms of black flies.

Thanks NH_Mtn_Hiker for all of the research.
 
I think black flies and other flies also use vision to find us. I've noticed black fly activity drops off a lot after dark, even when it's warm.

Another reason it's easier to outrun mosquitoes is because most species don't fly very fast. Black flies and deer flies fly much faster. A brisk walk will easily "outrun" most mosquitoes, but I've had deer flies draft behind me on a road bike at 20mph.
 
Great stuff in this post! I spent ten minutes discussing bug spray ingredients with a fellow shopper yesterday. I felt pretty smart. :)

FWIW, everything at EMS is DEET-based. I had to go to a department store of find Picaridin, and still haven't found permethrin.
 
blacknblue said:
FWIW, everything at EMS is DEET-based. I had to go to a department store of find Picaridin, and still haven't found permethrin.
EMS carries the Repel Permanon brand containing permethrin.

REI carries all three.

Doug
 
DougPaul said:
EMS carries the Repel Permanon brand containing permethrin.

REI carries all three.

Doug

Thanks for the heads-up, Doug!
I miss not having an REI around anymore. :( I moved from Boulder, CO, to Quechee, VT last summer. I didn't see the Repel Permanon at the EMS in West Lebanon, NH. They had a very small selection. Maybe I'll order it online.
 
blacknblue said:
Thanks for the heads-up, Doug!
I miss not having an REI around anymore. :( I moved from Boulder, CO, to Quechee, VT last summer. I didn't see the Repel Permanon at the EMS in West Lebanon, NH. They had a very small selection. Maybe I'll order it online.
The Repel Pemanone is an aerosol spray. I prefer a pump spray or a soaking treatment, both available from Sawyer via REI.
http://www.rei.com/product/734901
http://www.rei.com/product/751264

Doug
 
An easily available source for permethrin are flea and tick insecticides meant for household use available as pet supplies. I don't know how stringently they've been tested for safety when applied to clothing. However, since it's considered safe to live in your house after spraying floors, drapes, and furniture, I would feel no qualms about applying it to a hat or other clothing.

As always, check the label. Not all of these types of products contain permethrin.
 
Dugan said:
An easily available source for permethrin are flea and tick insecticides meant for household use available as pet supplies. I don't know how stringently they've been tested for safety when applied to clothing. However, since it's considered safe to live in your house after spraying floors, drapes, and furniture, I would feel no qualms about applying it to a hat or other clothing.
Dogs and cats have rather different skin (no sweat glands) than humans--a product safe for them might not be safe for humans.

Permethrin reacts with some chemical on human skin or in sweat which inactivates it.

There are warnings on the permethrin (for human clothing) bottles. I do not know how serious the risks actually are.

Doug
 
Just checked the label on a bottle of Zodiac indoor spray. It says to spray everything, leave for one hour, and then it's safe. Presumably, that includes humans as well as domestic pets. With that said, it is safest to stick with a product that is labeled for human use, and use it as instructed.
 
NH_Mtn_Hiker said:
...continued

Insect repellents:
Lemon Eucalyptus and other Essential Oils
Many people use essential oils instead of their chemical cousins because they believe that all natural compounds are safer. Consider this: poison ivy, hemlock, strychnine, and cyanide are also "all natural". Just because something is not considered a chemical, don't assume it's safe to use. Many of the essential oils used to repel insects are toxic to some degree and most are highly toxic to cats. For example, lemon eucalyptus oil can cause permanent blindness if it gets in your eyes and peppermint oil is a carcinogen and citronella oil is to bears what catnip is to cats and bears have the best noses in the woods. While the chemical repellents have decades of research and testing which support their safety claims, Essential Oil repellents are not scrutinized nearly as much and some of their claims may be completely unsupported. Combine this with the fact that essential oil repellents are only marginally effective against mosquitoes and black flies, almost useless against ticks, and the effects are only good for about 30-60 minutes. Why not just use something that works.

Picaridin
Picaridin, aka Icaridin, KBR 3023, Bayrepel, IR3535, and KBR was developed by Bayer AG of Germany in the 1980's. Bayer used 3D computer modeling to create a repellent at the molecular level that could block the sensory receptors of malaria carrying mosquitoes of the Anopheles genus as well the Blacklegged tick (Deer tick). The result was a repellent more effective than DEET against the aggressive Asian and African species of mosquitoes as well as stable flies and deer ticks; and as effective, or nearly so, against most other mosquitoes, flies, and ticks.....and Picaridin does this without the adverse side effects of DEET. In numerous laboratory tests, the most serious effects on test animals were to rats that were fed 5,000mg./day of Picaridin. They suffered liver damage. For you or I to get the same equivalent dosage we'd have to drink 15-20 cans of Picaridin a day....Compare that to the fact that as little as 2-4 ounces of DEET will kill a person. Picaridin is practically non-toxic to most mammals including humans, dogs, and cats; and it doesn't dissolve plastics and other synthetics the way DEET does. It's also biodegradable, making it much safer for the environment. Picaridin however, doesn't work the same way DEET does. It forms a defensive barrier on the skin which can take 15-30 minutes to form. Until then it's very ineffective. So give it time.

DEET
N,N-diethyl-meta-toluamide (DEET) was invented by the U.S. Department of Agriculture in the mid 1940's for use by the Army and it was made available to the public in 1957. For 50 years DEET has been the most effective longest-lasting mosquito and black fly repellant available. Despite it's super-effectiveness DEET has a few drawbacks.
1) DEET dissolves many plastics and other synthetics including: backpacks, clothing, watch crystals, cameras, paint finishes, sealants, as well as many other products.
3) The stuff repels humans almost as well as it repels insects due to it's smell and the greasy feel it leaves on the skin.
2) DEET applied to the skin is absorbed by the body. It is then excreted through perspiration and urination. That's right, you'll pee DEET for up to 24 hours after using it. After you flush and wash off the DEET applied to your clothing and skin it is sent off to a water/sewer treatment plant where the DEET will pass right through because these facilities were not designed to break down DEET and DEET is not biodegradable. For over 50 years DEET has been accumulating in our rivers, lakes and oceans, and recently it has been discovered that even some of our nations municipal water supplies have measurable concentrations of DEET in them. So what risk is there to the environment?
From the 1998 E.P.A. R.E.D. fact sheet:
"...Because DEET is only applied directly to the human body/clothing, cats,
dogs, pet quarters and household/domestic dwellings, it is considered to be an
“indoor residential” use...Ecological risk assessments are not conducted for pesticides with
exclusively indoor use patterns. Application of DEET to the human
body/clothing, cats, dogs, pet quarters, and household/domestic dwellings, is
not likely to adversely affect terrestrial wildlife or aquatic organisms..."
Obviously written by a politician!
4) Finally, it has been demonstrated (proven) that DEET can react with other chemicals/drugs in the body to produce unexpected and even fatal consequences, especially with DEET concentrations greater than 30%. A Canadian medical bulletin stated that DEET may have significantly greater toxicity when combined with ethyl and/or isopropyl alcohols and freon which are common in some DEET products. It has also been shown in laboratory tests that extended use of DEET kills neurons in the brain that control muscle movement, learning, memory and concentration. It shouldn't be any surprise that many countries, as well as New York City, have banned repellents with high concentrations of DEET or have banned DEET altogether. Note: The combination of DEET and an experimental drug (PB) used by Gulf War veterans is suspected by some researchers to be the cause of Gulf War Syndrome.

Permethrin
Insect repellents are generally less effective against deer ticks than they are against mosquitoes and black flies and the effects last for a much shorter duration. Another option is Permethrin, an insecticide with repellent properties which is considered safe for humans, dogs, and horses, but it's highly toxic to cats. It can be sprayed on your clothing and it kills ticks on contact and will last through several wash cycles. Ticks generally don't get more than 6-12 inches across a treated fabric, and if they're only on the fabric for a few inches they'll likely die before they can transmit Lyme disease to you, which usually takes at least 24 hours. Permithrin is generally safe to spray on skin, however due to the type of solvents used it will not bond with your skin and evaporates rapidly. Sprayed on your skin it's benefits are only good for about 15-20 minutes. Permithrin treated clothing in conjunction with DEET or Picaridin on your skin will make you virtually immune to Mosquitoes, Black Flies, and Ticks. While permethrin is highly effective on the trail, where it really excels is around the house. I use it in the entryway to combat the bugs that get in when my neighbor leaves the front door propped open at night and it's just Awesome when used strategically against sugar ants.

Both DEET and Picaridin were tested against grass, dandelions, and household plants. Both performed flawlessly. They are effective defoliants.

The information I've posted above is, to the best of my knowledge, accurate and seems to represent the general consensus among industry professionals and researchers from various organizations including; The C.D.C., W.H.O., manufacturers, various universities, reviews and tests performed by foreign governments and military's, as well as other sources.

I originally began researching this for myself and therefore took notes but did not keep track of references. I went back later and attempted to find the sources for the above information. If there is something missing, I'm sure someone will let me know.


Pulled up this thread by NH_MT_HIKER from last year on insect repellants. This year does anyone have a preference. I used the Picaridin but found it useless. I guess I'm going back to DEET. Like to hear what you think works best.
Skibones
 
skibones said:
Pulled up this thread by NH_MT_HIKER from last year on insect repellants. This year does anyone have a preference. I used the Picaridin but found it useless. I guess I'm going back to DEET. Like to hear what you think works best.
Skibones
I am not aware of any new info in the last year: IMO the best general strategy is still permethrin on clothing and DEET or picaridin on your skin. (I personally apply the permethrin to my clothing before hiking in warm weather and only apply DEET or picaridin in the field if getting bitten.)

Don't forget that all insects are not alike--the different products may affect different species differently. Permethrin is a contact insecticide which probably works on a wide range of insects, but, AFAIK DEET (a scent blocker) and picaridin (don't know how it works) have only been formally tested on mosquitoes.

Doug
 
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skibones said:
...I used the Picaridin but found it useless. I guess I'm going back to DEET. Like to hear what you think works best.
Skibones

Most of the Picaridin out there is either 5% or 7%, and yes, it's next to useless. The 15%, if you can find it, works very well...maybe not as good as 30% DEET in some instances, but it certainly has some other advantages over DEET.

I've also found that hiking faster works good to. :p :D
 
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