Insect Repellents..."DEET vs. The World"

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

BTW, there is a review of insect repellents in the June 2007 issue of Backpacker, tested against yellow fever mosquitos.

Doug

I've got a dollar that says they used Aedes aegypti.

Remember the old Off commercials where the guy would stand in a screen room wearing shorts and DEET with 10,000 hungry mosquitoes. Those weren't the same skeeters you see in your backyard.

Aedes aegypti are used in virtually all mosquito test done in the United States....why are they used you ask? Because they are easy to raise in captivity and they are highly sensitive to DEET.

 

[DougPaul]

I've got a dollar that says they used Aedes aegypti.

Yes that is what they used. I used the common name because more readers would understand it (they give both names in the article).

Remember the old Off commercials where the guy would stand in a screen room wearing shorts and DEET with 10,000 hungry mosquitoes. Those weren't the same skeeters you see in your backyard.

Yes, there are many species, some of which may be found in your back yard and some of which like human blood. And it is shift work--different species are active at different times of day and at different locations.

Aedes aegypti are used in virtually all mosquito test done in the United States....why are they used you ask? Because they are easy to raise in captivity and they are highly sensitive to DEET.

And/or perhaps because they are known to transmit a serious disease. Or perhaps everyone is following the "standard" because their results can be compared to other tests, even if the "standard" is not the most appropriate species for the NE USA.

Doug

 

[Nutsosa]

Great info NH_Mtn_Hiker!! I hadn't heard of picaridin, and after reading your posts I decided to try it. So last night I went to pick up some Cutter Advanced (the stuff with picaridin). The warning on the back says not to apply it to your face, and only "sparingly" around the ears.

Is there something else in it besides picaridin that is toxic? It seems like a strong warning for something that appears to be very safe. Maybe they're just being overcautious in a litigious society?

 

[Artex]

The main bug I can't stand is the deer fly. I've yet to use anything that gets rid of those little $%&*ers.

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

Great info NH_Mtn_Hiker!! I hadn't heard of picaridin, and after reading your posts I decided to try it. So last night I went to pick up some Cutter Advanced (the stuff with picaridin). The warning on the back says not to apply it to your face, and only "sparingly" around the ears.

Is there something else in it besides picaridin that is toxic? It seems like a strong warning for something that appears to be very safe. Maybe they're just being overcautious in a litigious society?

From the E.P.A. Fact Sheet on Picaridin.

"Because of Picaridin's unusual use pattern (direct application to human
skin), the Agency believes it is prudent to require clear, common sense use
directions and restrictions on Picaridin product labels. These directions include
how to apply and when to reapply, restrictions on how often to apply and
directions for using on children."

The E.P.A. and the various State Environmental Service agencies determine what "common sense" precautions go on the label, not the manufacturer. The warning is more of a precaution than anything else. The only toxicity issues involving the use of Picaridin on humans is that it is a moderate eye irritant and it may have the ability to damage the liver if consumed in high enough quantity. I believe you'll likely find the same precautions on a can of DEET.

 

[Snowflea]

Umm...

I just try to run fast.








.

Well okay... I'll admit to never being able to outrun a deer fly.


www.runsuerun.blogspot.com

 

[Andrew]

Any feedback on the newer "natural" products with Geranium Oil?

Artex- Check out the Tred-Not Deerfly Patches, manufactured by DETEX, LeRoy, Mich. Ph: 231-832-2323. I found 'em in a local hardware store and just have the info on the package with no website. It's a 2 sided self adhesive hat patch which is a fly paper.

 

[marty]

For a lengthy discussion on the subject of deer flies, here is a thread from a couple of years ago: Deer flies thread

Regards,
Marty

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

Any feedback on the newer "natural" products with Geranium Oil?...

Heath hazard data for selected repellents:

DEET:
Slight hazard irritation or minor reversible injury possible. That's the official version. DEET has been fatal when ingested and it's been known to cause chemical burns when applied to the crease of the elbow. The reason for this is unknown, but it has been confirmed.

Picaridin:
Oral ingestion---slightly toxic, Eye & Skin contact---practically non-toxic

Geranium Oil: Most toxic repellent found. Moderate hazard temporary or minor injury may occur. Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (permeator). HMIS health rating of 2, most others including DEET were 1.

Lemon Eucalyptus Oil:
Slight hazard irritation or minor reversible injury possible. Highly corrosive to eyes if not washed out immediately.

Citronella Oil:
Highly toxic to cats. Avoid repeated exposure during pregnancy. Mild skin and eye irritant.

0.5% Permethrin:
Permethrin was the least toxic of the repellents I found. Highly toxic to cats. Likely toxic when combined on the skin with DEET and/or in combination with neurological medications.
MSDS

Most other essential oils were similar to Lemon Eucalyptus Oil and Citronella Oil.

No data for R-326 found.

Above data comes from MSDS, Product Fact Sheets, as well as toxicity test results.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Because of DEET's fabric dissolving qualities, it's a good idea to carry it in a ziplock bag (or double bag) if in your pack. Even so, a few years ago my ziplock bag developed a few holes and my Precip jacket was perforated by a few drops of the stuff.

 

[DougPaul]

0.5% Permethrin:
Permethrin was the least toxic of the repellents I found.

Low toxicity for humans, but very toxic for fish. Not a good idea to wash it off into a pond or stream.

Doug

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

Low toxicity for humans, but very toxic for fish. Not a good idea to wash it off into a pond or stream.

Doug

Remember, it's designed for clothing, not skin, and it takes multiple washings to remove it from clothes. Just to be safe though, go skinny dipping.

 

[Andrew]

Is Permethrin considered lowest toxic only when used as directed (clothing only) or actually if it comes in contact with skin etc? -The warnings on the package freaked me out in the past.

Vice versa the brand of Geranium Oil I have makes it seem almost as safe as finger paint!

Anyone ever try "Cactus Juice"?- I saw a listing for it this weekend from Peregrine Outfitters, but have never heard of anyone using it. Sorry I don't remeber details on the exact name brand.

 

[JohnL]

Pretty much all the bug repellants I have tried in the past have literally taken my breath away, and I don’t mean that in the romantic sense. I simply cannot breathe if I am wearing them. I have seen people stopped at trail junctions and my nose tells me they are liberally doused in bug repellant but are swatting away like crazy. So I am not really sure how effective the stuff is anyways. I’m not so sure I want to apply anything to my clothes or skin that will dissolve fabric. Or breathe it or that matter!

For years now when hiking, I have gone without any bug repellant of any kind. I find that if I just keep walking, the bugs don’t bother me. Moving targets seem to be more of a problem for them. There are no deer fly repellants; only slight of hand or an accurate fly swatter work against them. If I am forced to stand around the only sure bet I've discovered is a good cigar. I’m sure a bad cigar works effectively as well but I figure if I’m going to smoke a cigar, it might as well be a good one.

JohnL

 

[Tim Seaver]

BTW, there is a review of insect repellents in the June 2007 issue of Backpacker, tested against yellow fever mosquitos.

Doug

FWIW, Repel Lemon Eucalyptus was the most effective non-DEET repellent in their testing, taking third place behind Maxi-DEET and Ultrathon.

 

[DougPaul]

For years now when hiking, I have gone without any bug repellant of any kind. I find that if I just keep walking, the bugs don’t bother me. Moving targets seem to be more of a problem for them.

I put permethrin on my clothing at home and don't bother bringing the bottle on the trail. (It lasts 2 weeks or so.) On the trail, I simply keep moving. I apply DEET to my skin only if needed--a several ounce bottle has lasted me 20+ years.

Have started experimenting with picaridin. It would generally replace the DEET in the above scheme.

Doug

 

[Nutsosa]

"Because of Picaridin's unusual use pattern (direct application to human
skin), the Agency believes it is prudent to require clear, common sense use
directions and restrictions on Picaridin product labels . . .

So I shouldn't rub it on my gums?

Thanks NH_Mtn_Hiker!

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

Many thanks to all for the very well informed discussion. I've always used deet, the stronger the better, without ever having really read up on it. The truth is, I hate the stuff so much I rarely use it; I just carry it with me all summer. Only on the very worst of days do I ever put it on. Sometimes I just try to outrun the little buggers. Having read through this thread and then the article in Backpacker I decided to go on line and order the Repel Eucalyptus repellent. It was surprisingly well rated and I just might find myself using that repellent more than I did Ben's or whatever I was using. Only trail time can tell for sure if it works. I no doubt will carry a backup of deet at first, just to be sure.

 

[DougPaul]

I've always used deet, the stronger the better, without ever having really read up on it. The truth is, I hate the stuff so much I rarely use it; I just carry it with me all summer.

The higher the concentration of DEET, the more oily it feels and the more dangerous it is to certain plastics. (I think nylon is safe.) The current recommendation seems to be a max of ~30%. (Higher concentrations supposedly are not any more effective, just last longer.) My 20+ year old DEET is somewhere around 25% (I think), doesn't feel greasy or smell bad (to me), and seems to work when needed.

Edit: a bit of searching produced some reports on which plastics are at risk to damage from deet:
Reported to be safe:
* natural fibers, eg cotton, wool
* nylon
Reported to be Unsafe:
* spandex
* rayon
* acetate
* pigmented leather
* vinyl
* watch crystals (plastic type?)
* glasses frames (plastic type?)
* camera cases (plastic type?)
* acrylic paint

Doug

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

Warning
DEET is a Synergizer, as is Permethrin.
Meaning that when safe doses of DEET or permethrin are combined with another chemical, drug, or even each other, the total toxicity is greater, possibly many times greater, than the sum of the individual toxicities.

DEET and Gulf War Syndrome
Though it was theorized for many years that the combination of DEET with other chemicals was responsible for the Gulf War Syndrome, even though the US government denied this, it has been demonstrated by the CDC and researchers from multiple universities, that the combination of DEET, Permethrin, and the Experimental nerve-gas pill (PB) can cause the same symptoms in laboratory animals as those associated with Gulf War Syndrome. The combination of DEET and Permethrin have caused neurological symptoms in laboratory animals.

I'm not a doctor, nor did I play one on TV, but it seems to me if DEET can cause neurological symptoms when combined with safe doses of Permethrin or neurological drugs like PB, then DEET combined with other neurological drugs including Epilepsy medications (Klonopin, Valium, Phenobarbital, Dilantin, and others) may produce similar hazards.

Most of the links below are about the DEET, Permethrin --- Gulf War Syndrome connection. The last link contains the most recent findings (I think)

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/DEET-Researcher-Fired.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/syndrome/analysis/pyribrom.html
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/consultations/deet/gulf-war-veterans.html
http://www.desert-storm.com/soldiers/report1.html
http://www1.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/ReportandRecommendations_2004.pdf
http://members.aol.com/dstormmom/vetcenter/moss2.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14751452&dopt=Abstract
http://www.gao.gov/archive/1997/ns97163.pdf
http://www.gulfwarvets.com/arison/gws.htm
http://www.house.gov/schakowsky/article_02_20_03illsuitedwar.html
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/meid:204198
http://www.dukemednews.duke.edu/news/article.php?id=797