Leave no trace - food issues.

[sleeping bear]

These is certainly a line you can cross on being obsessed. I'll eat most of an apple core, but spit the seeds. I have seen orange peels scrattered around in the snow and man does that piss me off! Partly because of the color, and just the utter disregard. Peel that thing at home!

I'll pick up what I drop on the ground, and what others have dropped, but I'm not going over a cliff for a snickers wrapper. I am also a LNT "master educator", the fancy term for "instructor".

These are all more than just picking up after yourself. Besides the social impact, there's the whole animal feeding aspect too. I know we beat this one to death in another thread, but it's especially important around campsites. Less so on the trail. As to other "droppings", well, those can be a health issue. The best practices for that can vary depending on when and where you are visiting.

Obviously, there's no such thing as leaving "no trace", it's minimizing impacts. I like to tell kids it's "strealth camping", it turns it into more of a game, makes it more fun. LNT isn't the law (although some parks have adopted the practices and impose fines for violation) but guidelines to help us make better choices about how we behave in the back and frontcountry. You go there because it's nice, lets keep it that way for the next people who go.

 

[DougPaul]

These is certainly a line you can cross on being obsessed. I'll eat most of an apple core, but spit the seeds. I have seen orange peels scrattered around in the snow and man does that piss me off! Partly because of the color, and just the utter disregard. Peel that thing at home!

Or carry the peel out with you...

Also apple cores decay rapidly in the NE, but orange peels last for a long time.

Doug

 

[Nessmuk]

Or carry the peel out with you...

Also apple cores decay rapidly in the NE, but orange peels last for a long time.

Doug

Even in the days long before LNT was a formalized concept, we were taught that orange peels were special, in that the natural oils prevented rapid decomposition. An occasional apple core tossed way off into unseen underbrush was ok, never orange peels.

 

[Grumpy]

I'm a firm believer in LALTAP. Leave As Little Trace As Possible.

Me too. LALTAP and reasonable.

G.

 

[mavs00]

a year or so back, somebody left a Hansel and Gretel trail of M&Ms on their way up (or perhaps down) the Gorge Brook Tr. on Moosiluake. I picked up every last one of them on my way down, eating many along the way. They were ugly and "lessened" my experience - as silly as that may sound...

Hmmmmm, few years back I was hiking with my kids, they were much littler back then, I typically take the lead to clear the way of any bears or marauding beasts that may have intended harm to my brood. For some reason, possibly nature's call, I lagged behind by a ways and had to catch up with them. As I walked behind them, I kept seeing single "smarties" (you know those little sugar pills that come 15-20 to a wrapper. Not packages mind you, just single smarties. They were left in obvious spots on top of clean (non-muddied) rocks on the trail, 1-2 might even have been a a log right next to the trail. I dutifully picked them up as I went (ate em too I think). I ran into maybe 4-5 of them.

Maybe 15 minutes or so I caught up with that gang. Knowing the content of her pack, I asked my 8 y/o baby girl, "Precious, were you leaving me little treats back there on the trail.". She smiled her "daddy's girl" smile, and said "uhuh...... I didn't want you to get lost and not be able to find us daddy".............

I freaking lost it. I went nuclear on her...... "DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW UNSIGHTLY THAT IS...... WHAT.... THESE ARE YOUR WOODS NOW? YOU INCONSIDERATE ROTTEN KID. ARE YOU DUMB OR SOMETHING? HAVE YOU NOT LEARNED ANYTHING ....stop crying.... I'VE TAUGHT YOU. DUH.... LEAVE NO TRACE? RING A BELL, DUMMY...... AND YOU WANNA BE A 46er, THEY'LL NEVER LET YOU IN WITH THAT KINDA ATTITUDE, MISSY ....I said, stop crying...." and on, and on. At least 15-20 minutes worth. I made sure to drop a few f-bombs in there too, for added emphasis.











Okay, maybe I just gave her a hug and said something like "your so sweet, princess"..... And we continued our hike. Hmmmmmm, I never once considered a few smarties or a handful of degradable treats fodder for a "leave no trace" debate.

Boy, do I feel silly now . Not that I (we, actually they are more guilty them I would be) do it on purpose or anything, but I really NEVER considered it. I wonder if my kids have.......... Sorry, that's the first thing that popped into my head when I read the M&M reference. Kids do the darndest things. btw, the first part of the story is 100% truth.


{DISCLAIMER - this post is purely in jest and not meant to offend, or does it represent "proper parenting skills", appropriate parent/child interaction........ blaa, blaa, blaa}

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Also apple cores decay rapidly in the NE, but orange peels last for a long time.

Tie that in with their color being less apealing.. Even a tiny bit of orange peel stands out against the dark black soil.... And the orange peel seems to resist getting dirty and becoming less 'visible'

 

[TMax]

Or carry the peel out with you...

Also apple cores decay rapidly in the NE, but orange peels last for a long time.

Doug

But we have to remember 2 important things;
1) if the apple (or other food item) is not native to the area you could be introducing something to the surrounding environment that is potentially harmful
2) the apple (or other food item) might be treated with chemicals or waxes that could be harmful to either the surrounding vegetation or to any animal that comes along and consumes it...

I say always pack it out!

 

[DougPaul]

Or carry the peel out with you...

Also apple cores decay rapidly in the NE, but orange peels last for a long time.

But we have to remember 2 important things;
1) if the apple (or other food item) is not native to the area you could be introducing something to the surrounding environment that is potentially harmful
2) the apple (or other food item) might be treated with chemicals or waxes that could be harmful to either the surrounding vegetation or to any animal that comes along and consumes it...

Points 1 and 2 apply to both apples and oranges.

Orange peels certainly have more visual impact in the NE, don't have any real data on the overall ecological impact. (Oranges are less likely to grow in the NE than are apples.)

I suspect the chemical treatments on apples or oranges have little effect on the woods, but don't have any real data.

In either case, carrying the food waste out reduces the impact in the woods and places it somewhere else (eg in the garbage dump).

If you want to be a real purist, you should carry your feces out with you too... (Required in some areas.)

Doug

 

[Lawn Sale]

We also have to use logic.

1) an apple tree is hardly potentially harmful to the environment. If the soil is not conducive to the apple tree growning, then it won't. If it is, then it still has to compete with all the other vegetation. If it does grow, it's still meant to be in the environment, unlike a candy wrapper or other non-biodegradeable material.

2) there aren't enough toxins, waxes, or chemicals on an apple to worry about with respect to the environment. It's processed for human consumption, and if the threat were that great there would be bulletins and a ban on them (I work in the environmental field). I'm not worried about something measured in such low concentrations that they would be considered hazardous.

Personally I have no problem with someone throwing an apple core or orange peel on the trail. I don't do it myself, but I also don't get broken up about it. For me it's purely aesthetic, I just don't like seeing commercially produced litter on the trail, even if it is biodegradeable.

 

[bryan]

i am a firm believer that whatever we bring in we should bring out with us. garbage, food scraps, etc. i also believe a well dug and thoughtfully located cat hole is sufficient for that other type of waste though in the whites whenever possible i would try to reach either a shelter, privy, or hut where the waste can be composted or in some cases still (madison hut for one) flown out at the end of the season. i've always thought that one of the best services the amc provides is human waste consolidation and management. i've heard horror stories of stretches on the southern a.t. where you can't even find a place to dig a cat hole.
my biggest pet peeve are the jerks who drop the refills for hot packs in the snow only to have them thaw out come spring. i picked up more of those than i care to recall in the zealand area last spring.

bryan

 

[Pete_Hickey]

If you want to be a real purist, you should carry your feces out with you too...

Anybody want to buy some WAG bags? I have some left over. The thought of going in that little bag, then putting in in my pack, just tightened me right up... if you know what I mean...

 

[Kevin Rooney]

1) an apple tree is hardly potentially harmful to the environment. If the soil is not conducive to the apple tree growning, then it won't. If it is, then it still has to compete with all the other vegetation. If it does grow, it's still meant to be in the environment, unlike a candy wrapper or other non-biodegradeable material.

Well .... while personally I don't think there's much risk to the environment from the odd apple core, we do have to careful about what non-native species we introduce to the enviroment. While the example's below probably overstate the problems created by not practicing LNT, it's clear that we do have to exercise some care not to alter the environment.

o Purple loosestrife, also known as the "purple plague," an ornamental plant promoted for its purple flowers, has the ability to produce millions of seeds which spread easily by wind or water. Once limited to gardens in the Northeast, it now chokes wetlands across the country.

o Japanese knotweed is a fast-growing herbaceous perennial that frequently forms dense bamboo-like patches along waterways. This plant has escaped cultivation and been naturalized throughout eastern North America, actively reducing species diversity and wildlife habitat.

o Common and glossy buckthorn, deciduous perennial shrubs that reach up to 20 feet in height, can establish dense stands and choke out native shrubs and herbaceous plants. Native to Europe and Asia, these shrubs were originally introduced for hedges, forestry uses, and wildlife habitat.

o Honeysuckle, with its tubular flowers and many-seeded berries, can alter native woody and herbaceous plants by decreasing light availability. Honeysuckle berries are readily eaten by birds which spread them across the landscape. Troublesome varieties include Morrow, Tatarian, and Hybrid.

o Japanese barberry grows along roadsides, in old fields and open woods. Tolerant of sun, shade and a variety of habitat types, this spiny, woody shrub is a particular threat to open, second-growth forests where, once established, it can crowd out other understory plants.


(The above reference was found at a VT Department Of Agriculture page.)

 

[Lawn Sale]

Believe me, I know all about invasive species, having to perform an aquatic survey of my lake every 2 weeks from spring to fall. We're looking for euration milfoil, european frogbit, hydrilla, fanwort, and a number of others I won't bore you with here. But, logic also comes into play here as I don't think anyone is going to be hiking down the trails munching on a bag of viable invasive species. But, stranger things have happened I suppose...

 

[KayakDan]

The LNT principle become important when you consider the cumulative effect of all the hikers (or paddlers) who use a given area. An orange peel,or a wraper from an energy bar seems like no big deal. But that's just one person's effect. Little items multiplied by the number of people using some more popular areas becomes a major issue.
Certain areas are more vulnerable than others,and have special LNT needs. Food can become a bear issue in the Whites,fires and catholes are a major concern on the islands in Maine.
As MITA volunteers,we often distribute LNT info to folks who are new to paddling. Most people will do the right thing,when it's explained to them in a reasonable way.
On the islands in Maine,that means pack out Everything-yeah-even that.

Several years ago,at the Maine Island Trail annual meeting,there were lunchtime discussion groups set up. Pick the table with the subject sign that interested you,and join in the discussion over lunch.
And there,in the middle of the room is a lunch table signed"Human Waste". An empty table.I wonder why?