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So what do you all do when you get to the shelter and there is a party with a tent ...erected:eek:inside of it. How can one tactfully tell them to set up elsewhere if they were there first?
 
I hope the guy & gal at the Slide Brook campsite from last weekend are members and read this.

I doubt they're from here ... There are more horses asses then there are horses but I haven't met any from this site.

Most important thing is the good time had by all. Life is too short to stew over the the manners lacking in some people. They'll get their come uppance, you can bet on it ... like, some day they may be wishing they had a corkscrew and wished they were camping with somebody cool.
 
Who decides when one is full? Are their capacities posted to resolve this ?
I believe that the Long Trail Guide for instance gives leanto capacity, but if there is a caretaker they occupy several spaces - the capacity of Taft Lodge was reduced by 8 from what it once was to allow for this

Of course it's usual to squeeze a few more in if conditions warrant

The WMNF "Camping Information" at the Rocky Branch trailhead says that you should share leantos up to capacity, but I don't know if this comes from an actual regulation or is just a suggestion [added after seeing sign Sat.]

Note that the rules posted so far are for NY, the WMNF Wilderness areas often limit group sizes to 10 and I think I saw somewhere that only one group is allowed per Wilderness campsite so other people could not share your site unless you decreed them part of your group
http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/white_mountain/recreation/camping/backcountry_rules_2008-09.pdf
 
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I think I saw somewhere that only one group is allowed per Wilderness campsite so other people could not share your site unless you decreed them part of your group
http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/white_mountain/recreation/camping/backcountry_rules_2008-09.pdf

By that definition, I can be a group of one and your group of 9 can't technically / legally muscle in. The "rules" as written require careful reading, and almost reducing them using Venn diagrams :eek: to really know what's legal where

Tim
 
Who decides when one is full? Are their capacities posted to resolve this ?

I may be in a position to start camping in the next year or two so I am curious... and I'm not necessarily (nor particularly at this time) interested in NY.

Tim

I don't know about other states, but the only place in NY where I've seen a specific figure (8 persons for a lean-to) is in the 13th edition of Adirondack Trails:High Peaks Region. Most lean-tos in NY are designed with 8 people in mind, though some are smaller (6 people). Offhand, I don't see these figures in the UMPs.
 
I don't know about other states, but the only place in NY where I've seen a specific figure (8 persons for a lean-to) is in the 13th edition of Adirondack Trails:High Peaks Region. Most lean-tos in NY are designed with 8 people in mind, though some are smaller (6 people). Offhand, I don't see these figures in the UMPs.


Most of the lean-to's in the high peaks region of NY have rules posted in the Lean-to. They are usually an occupancy of 8 people. That doesnt mean we can't sqeeze more in if the weather turned bad :)
 
Rickie,

It sounds like you all handled the situation very well. Being confrontational rarely results in a positive outcome. And you set a terrific example for the kids!

With respect to some of the other responses, I guess I would caution against assigning motive to the actions of the couple in question. It could simply be that they are newbies, and ignorant of accepted practices with respect to sharing of sites. They may have thought Rickie's group was out of line...they would have been wrong, but perhaps with no ill will or malice.

m2cw.
 
Yeah, 8 people was the capacity that came to mind, so a late fourth arrival would not be an egregious violation of either rules or etiquette - though 10 PM would be pushing it, particularly if nobody was awake. And esp considering how early the sun rises in northern mid-summer.

If I were to "impose", on a resident group, I'd first step away and pre-prep so as "settle down" in the shelter in a minute or less, without subjecting anybody to the sound of prolonged rustling and fumbling.

Speaking of which: Two people have no business taking up either an entire lean-to or a large prime camping spot to canoodle together. Bring a phone booth with you, to make things interesting.

Still, I'm sure we've all noticed how easily even 4 people can "expand" into a typical lean-to. In practice, 8 works best for a close-knit group, in low temps, with dry gear, and either earplugs or flownase strips at the ready.

As it is, I tend to eschew lean-tos. If it's raining, a lean-to is a nice luxury. But while fewer people would be in the woods then, those that were would be thinking the same thing. Drying rain-soaked clothes in a lean-to does not work particularly well in 100 % humidity. And pitching a tent in a lean-to just looks stupid.
Rain on a tent is nice white noise. If it's warm, a tent is better against bugs than a lean-to. If it's cold, a tent is warmer than a lean-to. Few tents have resident mice. Even fewer have resident pine martins. And when was the last time you clocked yourself on the head, standing up inside a tent ?

Designated camping areas more complicated because the first arriving group is semi-inclined to spread tents apart from one-another, if only in search of smooth level spots. A later arrival then has to look much harder for a spot without "encroaching".

Does that wander over most of the map ??? :)

MR
 
Does that wander over most of the map ??? :)

MR

Wandering is OK...the point being IMO it is hard to have concrete rules as each situation can be different depending upon the place and the people involved. Although I think that there can be some common agreement or guidelines. In the long run being diplomatic can go a long ways to educate the unknowing. Ignoring the situation IMO only perpetuates and enables the growth of the species in violation. Most of the time I look forward to meeting others at designated campsights. It is amazing what a bit of positive mental attitude and verbalization can do so everyone has a good time.
 
By that definition, I can be a group of one and your group of 9 can't technically / legally muscle in. The "rules" as written require careful reading, and almost reducing them using Venn diagrams :eek: to really know what's legal where
Even another "group" of 1 is too many :)

The spirit of designated Wilderness is that you shouldn't feel the presence of other people hence groups should camp well apart, and that disturbed areas at the sites should be kept to a minimum

Some sites can't reasonably hold a group of 10 unless they all share one 8-man tent, what the FS doesn't want is multiple groups on a site spreading it by trying to stay far apart

This is consistent with how the FS sees Wilderness, and people who share that view won't need to read the legalese - it's for the clueless and those who disagree with the FS policy

Incidentally, the WMNF "Camping Information" at the Rocky Branch trailhead says that you should share leantos up to capacity, but I don't know if this comes from an actual regulation or is just a suggestion
 
Best Line I ever heard was around 91 or 92 coming into the Seward LT on a late one very cold rainy afternoon. 2 older guys (70's) walked up behind me, upon seeing me standing in front of 3 young guys in the L/T and hearing one of the fellows in the L/T tell me "This one's Full - There's another L/T just up the trail."
One of the older guys walked right past 2 of the young guys and said loudly to his partner "I told you they built these things to fit 10 men." He then looked at the 3 guys and simply said "Which side were you boys planning on sleeping tonight?" Caught them completely off-guard - And they moved over quickly.
I heed that lesson. If I need space in a shelter or campsite, I don't even let someone have the option of telling me what is full or not. "Which Side are you taking?" and then drop my pack in the center of the L/T or the campsite. If they are acting like Jackasses, I might even proffer up the fact that there are "4 other people" I passed on the trail and We'll also have plenty of room for them when they get here later...
When the imaginary's don't show, The L/T Mates are even more friendlier - Feeling they've dodged a bullet.

And if you really want to have some fun, if the L/T people claim not to speak english, and you are with a friend you can simply start loudly talking about about some diabolical scheme you are hatching as soon as everyon'es asleep... (or you can whisper into your backpack and really freak them out).

...Might as well have some fun, now right????:D
 
-straight from Adirondack Mountain Club guide.

A small party cannot claim exclusive use of a shelter and
must allow late arrivals


No tent may be pitched inside a lean-to






Reading through thread not sure, so this couple had the tent set up inside
the lean-to !!! ? :mad: Sounds like you took the high road L R and showed you had more class,I probably would of done the same but not before letting them know about the tent.Even If they were a little green it's still not an excuse.Basic 101 ADK camping etiquette.
 
I hate to be the turd in the punchbowl, and I'm glad you were able to turn this into a positive experience, but let's review a few salient facts...
1) it was a big holiday weekend
2) you arrived after dark
3) you were a group of five, with kids

I mean... what did you expect? Most people don't appreciate having to share camping space with a group of five, especially a group that includes kids, especially after dark. I'm not familiar with that campsite, so maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like you put the couple in a pretty tough position.
 
My take on these situations is most likely over simplified but guidelines on "etiquette" are out the window because this is not some gassy dinner with the queen of England - you're hiking. If you feel somebody is squandering a needed resource, just say so. However, during fair weather, a lean to is not needed and why would you want to be packed in next to a bunch of airheads anyways? ...

If my experience hiking has taught me only one thing, it is to be self sufficient. The minute your plans hinge on there being an open space in a shelter or tentsite, you need to seriously reconsider your planned trip.
 
This is only slightly off thread, but has anyone else hiked all day to arrive at the best summit viewpoint where a party is having their lunch and continue to occupy that spot denying you the view?
I guess it is all a matter of human courtesy which some have missed somewhere in their education process, but I thought in kindergarten we were taught to share.
 
This is only slightly off thread, but has anyone else hiked all day to arrive at the best summit viewpoint where a party is having their lunch and continue to occupy that spot denying you the view?
I guess it is all a matter of human courtesy which some have missed somewhere in their education process, but I thought in kindergarten we were taught to share.
Yes, this was discussed a while back. Seek and ye may find...

But 'denying the view'? I guess it must be a very small summit or a very large, hostile group, or very tall people. :D Most summits afford plenty of space. Even with 100 or so people on Lafayette this summer, there was room for everyone.

I have seen a few places with just a narrow cutting, where people are sitting and eating. I just walk up a take a quick look (or 2). But I've never seen a sign that says '15 minute viewing'! :eek:

I have noticed a group dynamic, that the larger the group, the longer they take to do everything. Eat, bathroom breaks, layer off, rest stops, summit stays, etc.

They can't stay forever....
 
Reading through thread not sure, so this couple had the tent set up inside
the lean-to !!! ? :mad: Sounds like you took the high road L R and showed you had more class,I probably would of done the same but not before letting them know about the tent.Even If they were a little green it's still not an excuse.Basic 101 ADK camping etiquette.

The couple with the tent were at the tent site. There was no tent in the lean-to. The lean-to had space for 2-3 and was willing to share. The tent site had lots of space and were not willing to share.
 
I hate to be the turd in the punchbowl, and I'm glad you were able to turn this into a positive experience, but let's review a few salient facts...
1) it was a big holiday weekend
2) you arrived after dark
3) you were a group of five, with kids

I mean... what did you expect? Most people don't appreciate having to share camping space with a group of five, especially a group that includes kids, especially after dark. I'm not familiar with that campsite, so maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like you put the couple in a pretty tough position.

1) They were awake and sitting by a fire, we did not wake them up.

2) There was lots of room for our tents without crowding them.

3) 3 adults, 2 kids, one was with his father. Kid control was not a problem.

4) The tough problem was they didn't want to share.

5) I expected them to do what most any other people would in their situation, share.

6) We entered two other camp sites where people were sleeping and didn't bother them.

If you feel somebody is squandering a needed resource, just say so.

It wasn't important enough to start a confrotation and have those negative vibes on a beautiful weekend.

If my experience hiking has taught me only one thing, it is to be self sufficient. The minute your plans hinge on there being an open space in a shelter or tentsite, you need to seriously reconsider your planned trip.

We were self sufficet, we were prepared, and set up camp in the woods in a beautiful setting.

We hand a great weekend and this in no way was took away from it.
 
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