slow learner / no sweating in winter

[spider solo]

One thing that took a while for me to get into my head is that the backpack is part of the layering sytem. At the very least it works as another vest...and one that does not breathe very well at that....so I try to figure that in as part of the mix.

These days I start out warm and take off my outer layer as I warm up before I break a sweat and repeat the proccess through out the day as needed.

Stark naked...and you would still break a sweat when excerting heavily...so much so that some victims of hypothermia are found wearing next to nothing.

I wear layers of some kind of synthetic that I like a lot....I have no idea what it is made of, but it is wafer thin, windproof and breathes extremly well.. Even if I am sweating heavily when I stop for a break and put on my outer layer I am completly dry within a couple of minutes.

I used to always change my shirt when I was near the peak...sometimes it would freeze before it even hit the ground.
When hiking with my wife and her girlfriend they would also change their tops.
Though it may not have been more effective, it certainly was a lot more fun !

 

[Rik]

Personally, I can't stand being cold in the parking lot. So I dress warmly, wait for my hiking cohorts to be ready, dump my largest layer, then start up. Usually, after 5 to 10 minutes on the trail, I lose another layer. Another 10 minutes, another layer. Then I am usually good for the rest of the "up" as I am usually just in my polypro. My hat is KEY for dumping heat. Off it comes when I am hot, on it goes as SOON as we stop. If the rest stop is a long one, then on goes the soft shell or fleece jacket. The side zips on my softshell pants are always open on the up.

Did I mention I "heart" softshell pants? I resisted for a long time, but these babies have made their way into my favorite gear of all time list.

This describes my routine pretty well.

 

[DougPaul]

Stark naked...and you would still break a sweat when excerting heavily...so much so that some victims of hypothermia are found wearing next to nothing.

There is a phenomonon called "paradoxical warming" that can occur during hypothermia. The victim feels hot, so he takes his clothing off. This occurs when the body temp is fairly low--if you see someone doing this, he is in bad shape. He is way beyond rational thermal control. So sweating and finding quasi-naked hypothermia victims are not directly related.


Some personal datapoints (I put out a lot of heat when active, but have a low resting metabolism)**:
* if inactive, I'm comfortable in shorts and a tee shirt down to ~75F.
* if active, the shorts and tee shirt are adequate down to 40-50F.
* if active and wearing my winter getup (thin polyester long johns and medium wool pants), I have to strip down to my thin polyester top if the temp is ~20F. If I pull the long johns up to my knees, the threshold rises to ~30F. Any warmer and I just have to sweat it out or slow down.

Different people generate different amounts of heat--you have to learn for youself how much you generate.

** the above assumes a sunny day and no wind. Obviously, more insulation will be needed at a given temp and activity if it is windy.

On warm (30+F) days, I sometimes wear my summer zip-off pants over the long johns. If you take the legs off and are wearing high gaiters, you can just stow them in the gaiters. I've certainly seen people hiking in shorts over long johns.

When I start out, it takes 10-20min for my heat to fully build up, so I take one or two strip-stops to adjust my insulation. Throughout the rest of the day, I'm taking my hat on and off (you lose a lot of heat from a bare head), raising and lowering jacket zippers, adding and subtracting insulation layers and shells, etc as needed to maintain a proper body temp. (It might sound complicated, but it isn't. You also learn how much insulation you need for various conditions which saves time by helping you to anticipate your needs.)

Doug

 

[Tom Rankin]

Now if only I can come up with a system to keep my gatorade from freezing!

I pour boiling water into gatorade mix in a nalgene bottle, and immediately cover it with a bottle cozy. It has never frozen, even after 12 hours in 0F conditions. Even more extreme, put it in a good thermos.

Last resort, this thread talks about packages of coffee (and tea) that self heat. Expensive, and non-recyclable, but a tad lighter than a thermos.

 

[spider solo]

There is a phenomonon called "paradoxical warming" that can occur during hypothermia. The victim feels hot, so he takes his clothing off. This occurs when the body temp is fairly low--if you see someone doing this, he is in bad shape. He is way beyond rational thermal control. So sweating and finding quasi-naked hypothermia victims are not directly related
Doug

Yes , I knew that I wasn't phrasing it quite accurately....so I would say that they are not always related...but a sweating lost person, for example, is more apt to discard clothes they feel are unneccassary only to become hypothermic at a later date.
So I would hold off saying the two are unrelated...

I am curious if a person wearing wind proof clothing does indeed need to add more insulation on a windy day...I am always tossing that around in my head ... experimenting with different versions on that theme.

I believe it is the story of Dr Ball ,if I have his name correct, who survived 2 or 3 nights with only an umbrella as his shelter. I think the thought was that his clothing froze and acted as a wind barrier to protect him...but I'm not about to put that to a real life test, that's for sure.

 

[bill bowden]

Layering for beginners

All good statements. I've been winter hiking since about 1990 and teaching beginners at hiking schools since 1992. It is almost always difficult to get beginners to dress lightly enough to avoid heavy sweating, it appears you need to realize you won't die before you can deal with layering well.

A few comments:
Hike cool but rest warm-carry the additional layers and give yourself lots of options-long johns yes, goretex shell yes, fleece vest, fleece jacket, down jacket-you won't wear them all at once but will wear them for different conditions.

Hot water in a bottle inside a wool sock in your clothes means the gloves etc you put on will be warm rather than frigid.

Making proper dress harder-each of us has an individual metabolism and somewhat different layering needs and only you know how cool or warm you are.

 

[DougPaul]

Yes , I knew that I wasn't phrasing it quite accurately....so I would say that they are not always related...but a sweating lost person, for example, is more apt to discard clothes they feel are unneccassary only to become hypothermic at a later date.
So I would hold off saying the two are unrelated...

That is why I said that they were not directly related.

If a person who is ok took off his clothes and then became hypothermic, then that would be directly related.

IMO, a more likely chain of events is that a person sweats, gets his insulation wet, perhaps takes it off (not all do, eg the group that we rescued) and then when he cools down, puts the wet insulation back on (or just keeps it on) and finds it inadequate to keep him warm. The colder that it gets, the more important it is that one keep one's insulation dry.

Doug

 

[Chip]

No Sweat or Less Wet ?

I'm not sure, and it might not matter, but I'm pretty confident alot of sweat management is actually only moisture dumping as opposed to actually sweating less. An example would be if I went hiking in a long sleeve cotton tee shirt vs a capilene base layer: essentially the same insulation but the cotton holds the sweat and the capilene wicks it away, so when I stop I'm dead in the cotton and dry in the capilene. If I start a hike with 2 highly breathable layers (for me capilene and 100 w. fleece) I may require fewer stops than if I was wearing less breathable layers (an example for me is a silk base layer and Polartec fleece).

 

[DougPaul]

I'm not sure, and it might not matter, but I'm pretty confident alot of sweat management is actually only moisture dumping as opposed to actually sweating less.

You are correct to a certain degree.

1. We always release mosture from the skin in cool/cold weather. (Skin is warm and moist, the cool environment is effectively dry. Moisture is driven by heat from warmer to cooler places.) The amount of moisture released by the skin only increases when we sweat.
2. We want to keep our clothing dry as is practically possible. Thus we need to release the moisture to the environment. Wicking fabrics and wool are more efficient at transferring the moisture to the surrounding cool air and minimizing the amount captured in the fabric than are fabrics such as cotton.
3. Some of the moisture will collect in the fabric--thus we want to use fabrics that retain their insulation and mechanical resiliency when they become damp.
4. Preventing dehydration is always an issue, so it is desirable to minimize the amount of water lost to sweating for this reason as well.

So staying cool and avoiding sweating are desirable. But we also need to dump moisture from our clothing to minimize the build up. Highly breathable fabrics allow a lot of ariflow to convect water vapor away and to help evaporate moisture in the fabric and convect it away.

Fabrics such as fleece and wool retain enough insulation and resiliency when damp that there is far more margin than if one was using cotton. (Dry fleece, dry wool, and dry cotton are all fine. It is just what happens to them when they get wet that makes use choose between them.)

Doug

 

[carole]

(Dry fleece, dry wool, and dry cotton are all fine. It is just what happens to them when they get wet that makes use choose between them.)Doug

Doug Paul , I must respectfully disagree on that one. If I were to walk to my mailbox (~300 ft.) today (icy winds) in my fleece pants and fleece top (dry, no sweating) I would be chilled but it would be much more tolerable than if I were to walk there in cotton jeans and cotton sweatshirt. The jeans and sweatshirt are probably even more wind resistant than the fleece but in no time they feel like ice on the skin even though dry, I would chill faster, have a harder time getting warm if I were to move faster and it would take me much longer to warm up in them once returning to a warmer environment (house).

 

[DougPaul]

Doug Paul , I must respectfully disagree on that one. If I were to walk to my mailbox (~300 ft.) today (icy winds) in my fleece pants and fleece top (dry, no sweating) I would be chilled but it would be much more tolerable than if I were to walk there in cotton jeans and cotton sweatshirt. The jeans and sweatshirt are probably even more wind resistant than the fleece but in no time they feel like ice on the skin even though dry, I would chill faster, have a harder time getting warm if I were to move faster and it would take me much longer to warm up in them once returning to a warmer environment (house).

I was not referring to the wind blocking capability of the different materials. That is highly dependent upon how tight the weave is. I was referring to the still air insulation.

The class of insulation that we use on our bodies insulates primarily by stopping convective air flow and creating a dead air space. A wide range of materials can do this similarly well--thus dry insulation is primarily a function of thickness. Therefore, if you wrap them in a plastic bag to block wind and moisture, 1 in of fleece is about as good as 1 inch of:
* down
* primaloft
* wool
* newspaper
* steel wool
* dry leaves
* fiberglass (house insulation)
* cotton ...
We choose one over the others for various purposes because of other characteristics than just their insulation capability when dry and protected from the wind.

BTW, you will find essentially the same info on insulation in the early--mid 1970s EMS catalogs. (They were very good sources of info on equiment.)

The US Army Quartermaster insulation tables, which I have listed several times on this BBS, give thickness as a function of temperature and activity level, not material. (The tables that I have listed were quoted in the above EMS catalogs.)

Older timers will remember part-cotton shells (60-40s and 65-35s). A tightly woven (wind blocking) cotton (ventile is best) shell is very good in very cold conditions (eg Antarctica). As long as it is cold enough to stay dry, the cotton shell is good windblock that remains breathable in the cold. (Many of the synthetic shells will ice up and lose breathability.)

Note: the worst place for cotton is next to your skin due to its tendancy to absorb moisture. It is only useful for shells under dry-cold conditions.

If I go out to my mailbox on a windy day, my jeans will be much warmer than my fleece pants because the jeans are a much better windblock than are my (very breathable) fleece pants. If I am just sitting around in a windless place, then the fleece pants are warmer because they are thicker.

My guess is that your fleece is thicker than your cotton. The cotton may also have been absorbing moisture, even for such a short walk. (Your skin is always moist, even if you are not sweating. The temp difference between your skin and your clothing will drive moisture into the clothing.)

Doug

 

[Woody]

Softshell jacket

I think a softshell jacket has also helped me to regulate my heat and sweating. It gives me better wind protection than just a fleece, but it is much more breathable than a gore-tex or other hard shell jacket for those steady breeze type days. Generally a hard-shell is still needed once above timber line or in more severe weather. I also find that I am often hiking in only my long sleeve polypro undershirt while going up steeps sections of trail. I will also try to regulate my pace as well at times to limit sweating. I'm certainly not out there to set any speed records!

 

[spider solo]

I was not referring to the wind blocking capability of the different materials. That is highly dependent upon how tight the weave is. I was referring to the still air insulation.

Older timers will remember part-cotton shells (60-40s and 65-35s). A tightly woven (wind blocking) cotton (ventile is best) shell is very good in very cold conditions (eg Antarctica). As long as it is cold enough to stay dry, the cotton shell is good windblock that remains breathable in the cold. (Many of the synthetic shells will ice up and lose breathability.)
Doug

I have seen the tightly woven cotton listed as "Egyptian Cotton" making up the windproofs of the old days. I have an interest in these as part of a wool/cotton layering system used by people like the Conovers for expedition travell using the "old ways" for months at a time. However not for mnt climbing. One example they use is...if it has pit zips then it's not breathing effeciently and the need of the zips is the proof.

While in theory an inch of insulation is an inch of insulation (much like a pound of feathers is the same as a 1lb brick) the different materials will reflect the heat back to you in different ways.
For example North Face says it's Primaloft is 15 % warmer than other insulation when dry (of course they don't say what the other insulation is).

Holding a hand full of Primaloft I wouldn't say it generates its own heat when it interacts with your hand but ,it certainly gets warm very quickly leaving the impression that it is at least is absorbing the heat and reflecting it back more efficiently than "others".

 

[Bob Kittredge]

Hmm. Where to begin?

1. Only took one lesson: One June I was packing for a hike, looked at my gloves, and said "hell, it's June. I don't need no stinking gloves!" So up on Crawford Path between Ike and Monroe in rain and 40 mph winds my fingers would no longer work well enough to undo my sternum strap. Have always carried at least a light pair of fleece gloves ever since.

2. Still working on this one: Two weeks ago approaching the top of Falling Waters I got summit fever and neglected to stop, put on crampons and layer up before hitting treeline. Had to do all that in a cold breeze and paid the price.

3. Winter layering: This has taken me a while too. The critical decision is whether or not to put on longjohn bottoms before I get started cuz they're a bitch to change into/out-of once you're on the trail. Then a pair of zip-leg pants. Great invention! As you get warm, you can unzip the bottoms and tuck them into your gaiters. Finally there's a pair of full-zip windpants if you need them for the summit. The top half is much easier, but I nearly always start with a shortsleeve VFTT shirt. Going up Valley Way last month in 30 degree temps, I did much of it with bare knees and elbows hanging out.