Trail respect

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Mark said:
Post-holing can result in very dangerous conditions for others to follow when the soft snow refreezes. I was descending after a solo hike and moving at a good pace. The packed trail was very solid after several very cold days, so I was safely bare booting. However, someone had post-holed on the trail earlier in the week and the post hole was now frozen solid and hidden under a layer of fluffy snow. I never saw it. My forward momentum almost caused me to break my leg when I fell in.

Please be considerate of others who share the trail with you. Thanks!
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Isn't this example of an accident -- a broken leg -- enough to help people say, "I'm going with my snowshoes." Why purposefully make conditions worse?

I think that raf-b might better understand the reason for "glares and silent opprobrium" (love that word!) after having more experience on the trails in winter and seeing how good/bad it can be just because of how others are considering the trails.

Don't have snowshoes? Buy or rent them. Can't afford them? Budget for them and do something else with your energy while you are saving. Saving your money and saving others from surprise injuries.

That's just my opinion, and is based upon the way I've chosen to live my life.
 
rafe_b said:
Or might it be, reluctance to carry snowshoes, assuming the trail has already been "consolidated"? I'm somewhat new to winter hiking though I've been in this position and felt the glare and silent opprobrium of the snowshoe-wearers. I come from a mindset that eschews excess weight and but maybe that's not a good mindset for winter hiking.
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Sorry this argument carries no weight with me.

1. You often cannot tell at the trailhead if you will need them. But once left behind, you can't choose to use them no matter how badly they may be needed.
2. Even if the trail is reported to be packed, people have wandered off the trail and become enmired in a survival situation because they cannot move easily enough through deep unconsolidated snow. (IIRC there have been rescues caused by this situation.)
3. Trails can be rock hard in the morning and soft in the afternoon, thus stranding a snowshoe-less hiker far from the trailhead.
4. Even with only a few inches of snow on top of a trail, it is more efficient to use the snowshoes than not.
5. The damage to the trail (ie snow) itself caused by postholing is not the issue--it is the unpleasant footing and risk thrust upon the other users of the trail. Read, for instance, Mark's comment.

Saving weight is fine, but only if one does not increase the risk to oneself or others. (IMO, a lot of ultralight gear sacrifices performance and safety.)

IMO, if you are not properly equipped, then you are an accident waiting to happen and shouldn't be out there. Knowing what you are doing (or having a competent leader) helps too... (And if you are a beginner--get some competent instruction. Take a winter hiking course or hire a guide for a trip or two.)

Doug
 
Tim Seaver said:
A winter classic.

This is similar to campaigning to stop people from driving 50 mph in the fast lane.

Good Luck.
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Nice analogy; so are you saying all postholers are from Maine? ;) :)

I think those people who are so adamant against what others choose to do of their own free will on trails might enjoy the lyrics to this song which seems appropriate to the conversation.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/rush/thetrees.html

"I don't like postholes"
"I don't like butt sledders"
"I don't like bushwhackers"
"I don't like people who use small snowshoes"
"I don't like groups of hikers."
"I don't like people who read trail condition reports to determine which trails are broken out."
"I don't like red on people in the woods."
"I don't like when people don't move aside on the trail."
"I don't like when others carry cell phones."
"I don't like when people use a GPS."
"I don't like when people are too old to hike."
"I don't like when someone doesn't carry the same gear as me."
"I don't like solo hikers."
"I don't like hikers with accents."
"I don't like smokers on the trail."
"I don't like how metal pole tips scratch the rock."
"I don't like dogs in the woods."
"I don't like people who hang at shelters."

I love the mountains, the trails, the beauty, the people, and have a fantastic time nearly every time I am lucky enough to be in nature.

My perspective.

PS - the snowshoe thread is only late this year because the snow was late this year. The first posthole showed up after February 1 I think.
 
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Last winter, skiing down from Mt. Garfield, the trail was a total mess from several a$$holes (it was many, because there was a well-worn, knee-deep trough all the way to the summit and back). At places in the trail you could see they went at least three feet into the snow. These idiots destroyed the trail-path, rendering me unable to get my heels turned. Using skis on this rock hard frozen uneven surface made the ascent and descent tougher. The usual spots for for checking my speed were too deep. Trail conditons were bad until you started to level out, then you could get the skis turned and it was safer. It was good snow from the start of the switchbacks down. Once down low I saw many snowshoers (from Massachusetts, I assume) wearing narrow MSR shoes. I said it's deep enough for to not pack down the trail in a single file, and to spread it around a bit. They ignored it and went down in snowshoes and destroyed that part of the trail.

What is with these types? The two a-hole snowshoers, this big group? It's clear they don't care on what they do. Those snowshoers...I ever meet them on the trail...I'll pitchfork them with my poles.

Dug


Better? :D

(just kidding, BTW)
 
Raven said:
Nice analogy; so are you saying all postholers are from Maine? ;) :)

I think those people who are so adamant against what others choose to do of their own free on trails will might enjoy the lyrics to this song which seems appropriate to the conversation.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/rush/thetrees.html

"I don't like postholes"
"I don't like butt sledders"
"I don't like bushwhackers"
"I don't like people who use small snowshoes"
"I don't like groups of hikers."
"I don't like people who read trail condition reports to determine which trails are broken out."
"I don't like red on people in the woods."
"I don't like when people don't move aside on the trail."
"I don't like when others carry cell phones."
"I don't like when people use a GPS."
"I don't like when people are too old to hike."
"I don't like when someone doesn't carry the same gear as me."
"I don't like solo hikers."
"I don't like hikers with accents."
"I don't like smokers on the trail."
"I don't like how metal pole tips scratch the rock."
"I don't like dogs in the woods."
"I don't like people who hang at shelters."

I love the mountains, the trails, the beauty, the people, and have a fantastic time nearly every time I am lucky enough to be in nature.

My perspective.

PS - the snowshoe thread is only late this year because the snow was late this year. The first posthole showed up after February 1 I think.
Click to expand...

I guess I should feel lucky to be liked by Scott.

Z :D

Peace brother
 
dug said:
Last winter, skiing down from Mt. Garfield, the trail was a total mess from several a$$holes (it was many, because there was a well-worn, knee-deep trough all the way to the summit and back). At places in the trail you could see they went at least three feet into the snow. These idiots destroyed the trail-path, rendering me unable to get my heels turned. Using skis on this rock hard frozen uneven surface made the ascent and descent tougher. The usual spots for for checking my speed were too deep. Trail conditons were bad until you started to level out, then you could get the skis turned and it was safer. It was good snow from the start of the switchbacks down. Once down low I saw many snowshoers (from Massachusetts, I assume) wearing narrow MSR shoes. I said it's deep enough for to not pack down the trail in a single file, and to spread it around a bit. They ignored it and went down in snowshoes and destroyed that part of the trail.
Click to expand...
I have climbed Garfield on waxes and have had to use skins to reduce my speed on the descent... Narrow or wide snowshoes--either way speed control is difficult in the trench.

Other members of the party (whose downhill skills were better than mine) used skins on the way up and took them off for the way down.

Doug
 
Raven said:
Nice analogy; so are you saying all postholers are from Maine? ;) :)

I think those people who are so adamant against what others choose to do of their own free on trails will might enjoy the lyrics to this song which seems appropriate to the conversation.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/rush/thetrees.html

"I don't like postholes"
"I don't like butt sledders"
"I don't like bushwhackers"
"I don't like people who use small snowshoes"
"I don't like groups of hikers."
"I don't like people who read trail condition reports to determine which trails are broken out."
"I don't like red on people in the woods."
"I don't like when people don't move aside on the trail."
"I don't like when others carry cell phones."
"I don't like when people use a GPS."
"I don't like when people are too old to hike."
"I don't like when someone doesn't carry the same gear as me."
"I don't like solo hikers."
"I don't like hikers with accents."
"I don't like smokers on the trail."
"I don't like how metal pole tips scratch the rock."
"I don't like dogs in the woods."
"I don't like people who hang at shelters."

I love the mountains, the trails, the beauty, the people, and have a fantastic time nearly every time I am lucky enough to be in nature.

My perspective.

PS - the snowshoe thread is only late this year because the snow was late this year. The first posthole showed up after February 1 I think.
Click to expand...

You forgot "I don't like people who drive less than 50mph in the high speed lane" (especially now that speed limit is 70mph on Rte 93). :)
 
Dear Doug, I shall seek the nearest outdoor store and amend my evil ways. The snowshoes I own are wood frame and rawhide, ancient but serviceable and I'd not enjoy carrying them on my back. The Tubbs that I acquired in 1990 or so disintegrated and went into the trash, but the old wood and rawhide pair will never die. I haven't dropped a bundle at REI in eons. The time has come.
 
rafe_b said:
Dear Doug, I shall seek the nearest outdoor store and amend my evil ways. The snowshoes I own are wood frame and rawhide, ancient but serviceable and I'd not enjoy carrying them on my back. The Tubbs that I acquired in 1990 or so disintegrated and went into the trash, but the old wood and rawhide pair will never die. I haven't dropped a bundle at REI in eons. The time has come.
Click to expand...
I also still have my 13x28 wood flat bearpaws with neoprene and nylon decking which are still quite serviceable despite their being around 40 years old. My more modern MSR Ascents are smaller, lighter, and have better traction, but do not give as much flotation in light powder.

I do like the Howe bindings on the old snowshoes better than the MSR bindings...


If you search around, you will find several threads listing members favorite snowshoe models. (My 2 cents is that the MSR Evo Ascents are a good choice.) Hopefully you will find carrying the new ones less onerous than carrying the old ones.

Doug
 
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Raven said:
Nice analogy; so are you saying all postholers are from Maine? ;) :)

I think those people who are so adamant against what others choose to do of their own free on trails will might enjoy the lyrics to this song which seems appropriate to the conversation.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/rush/thetrees.html

"I don't like postholes"
"I don't like butt sledders"
"I don't like bushwhackers"
"I don't like people who use small snowshoes"
"I don't like groups of hikers."
"I don't like people who read trail condition reports to determine which trails are broken out."
"I don't like red on people in the woods."
"I don't like when people don't move aside on the trail."
"I don't like when others carry cell phones."
"I don't like when people use a GPS."
"I don't like when people are too old to hike."
"I don't like when someone doesn't carry the same gear as me."
"I don't like solo hikers."
"I don't like hikers with accents."
"I don't like smokers on the trail."
"I don't like how metal pole tips scratch the rock."
"I don't like dogs in the woods."
"I don't like people who hang at shelters."

I love the mountains, the trails, the beauty, the people, and have a fantastic time nearly every time I am lucky enough to be in nature.

My perspective.

PS - the snowshoe thread is only late this year because the snow was late this year. The first posthole showed up after February 1 I think.
Click to expand...


Love it!

Is it too early to start the darn winter hikers packing down the trail and creating the mono-rail we all love in April and May thread? Negotiating the monorail is as bad as walking around a few holes? If all the winter hikers stayed home (isn't winter hiking unsafe, that's what I see in the comments section after every rescue :D ) the trail would melt out quicker and evenly except for drifts. Why is your way better?

In the ADK's yes, there are snowshoe rules. Otherwise, it's hike your own hike. Butt sliding, aka glissading packs everything down. How do you hold you head up as a winter hiker and then whine about the snow conditions? Find a rail trail if you need smooth.

Only 70 in the fast lane? I thought the 50 MPH cars were just road cones. Doesn't my EZ pass mean everyone else is easy to pass?

You forgot the "I hate tourists, I love tourist $$$$
 
you could voluntarily pave the trails of wilderness perhaps?? or you could invent a grooming machine to be towed by a human. You may be able to get a provision made to force postholers to tow the machine?? Unfortunately, the people who were postholing were probably not thinking malevolently "to hell with all them", but rather about where to step next. but I'm glad that they were out there getting the outdoors medicine and some really rigorous old fashioned hardy mountain exercise. I rejoice.
 
The regulations in the Adirondacks that have been referenced previously seem to be mere suggestions to many. Spent part of last week out there doing my first winter Adirondack hikes and despite a big sign at the trailhead many people didn't even bring snowshoes, let alone wear them. We caught up to a guy who was bare booting and post holing despite the fact that he had snow shoes strapped to his pack. He proudly told me that he "never wears those damn things" as he stepped aside to let us pass. When he did step aside he post holed. Bumped into him again on our way back from the second summit (he was still heading out towards peak two) - this time he thanked me for the work our group did to pack down the trail so it would be easier for him to bare boot. Said he was tired from doing all of the extra work required to repeatedly un-post hole himself. Felt like telling him to strap em on and grab a spot in our line to do his share of the work, but I could tell that I would be wasting my time and it could ruin my hike.
 
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