Re: Another one
-dave-
Kank-a-maw-gusmiehoff said:
-dave-
What IS the correct pronounciation?
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ALGonquin Bob
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I'm going with the "McComb" version. How do you spell "annnoying pett peeeves", such as picking on somebody for a minor spelling or grammatical error? My pet peeve is that I really dislike the slang term "Dacks", or any of the other varieties of that. I see it as an ugly abbreviation for a beautiful place. Adirondacks isn't so hard to say or write, is it? At least the flames here are friendly.
Mark Schaefer
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McComb and Macomb (along with numerous others) are variants of the same Scottish clan, derived from the Gaelic Omish (Thomas). Probably either the McComb or Macomb pronunciation is justified. The 46er book and the ADK guidebooks claim that Macomb mountain was named after the 1812 General Alexander Macomb, Jr. rather than his father. Alexander Macomb Sr. was the land speculator who once claimed ownership of the mountain (and most of the Adirondacks). However, Russell Carson's book states it is unclear for which of the two Alexander Macombs the mountain is named.
Back to the original subject of Hough and Pough (huff and puff). I am not sure who coined the tongue in cheek Pough (named for no one). I believe it first appeared in print in the McMartin guidebook Discover the Adirondack High Peaks. The ADK guidebooks still refer to this false summit by the inferior term "the hogback". We should be forever grateful for the unknown punster.
Back to the original subject of Hough and Pough (huff and puff). I am not sure who coined the tongue in cheek Pough (named for no one). I believe it first appeared in print in the McMartin guidebook Discover the Adirondack High Peaks. The ADK guidebooks still refer to this false summit by the inferior term "the hogback". We should be forever grateful for the unknown punster.
While Macomb has the honor of having a mountain named after him, the greater tribute is the dorm at Plattsburgh State that bares his name as well. The standard 1960’s concrete bunker motif, I’m sure is mother would be proud. We always pronounced it Mc Comb.
lumberzac
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I actually never heard of the Adirondacks referred to as the 'dacks until last year on a backpacking forum. I find it a little annoying.
Kayderosseras is pronounced Kay-dee-ross-er-us
Kayderosseras is pronounced Kay-dee-ross-er-us
el-bagr
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Re: Re: Another one
I did a bit of research on this one too -- pre-crash. Fascinated by language as I am, I just redit it. Kancamagus was a leader of the Penacook federation of peoples. The Penacooks came together from diverse backgrounds and various groups, united for the common cause of survival. The Penacook people spoke a variant of Abenaki.
Based on this, I have found that the g in the "-mag-" dipthong was to be nasalized in the Penacook-Abenaki -- a bit like "ng". While I don't have much access to native speakers, there are a few sound clips of Penacook-Abenaki speech on the web that back this up. (The Cowasuck group is doing a great job of keeping the language alive and online today.) A number of other languages include the nasalized "ng"; you may be familiar with this dipthong from other contexts.
Reading pronunciation guides and listening to these sound clips, my conclusion is that the original pronunciation was kank-a-ma-ngus.
As a note, the Abenaki language tends to pronounce vowels the same regardless of their syntactical placement -- i.e. the first "a" in a word will have the same sound as the terminal "a". (See http://www.cowasuck.org/language/lesson3.htm). According to that resource, A is pronounced as in "master". This would suggest against the "-maw-" pronunciation of a "-ma-" syllable in an Abenaki word.
Any attempt to transliterate sounds into letters is inherently flawed or ambiguous. Even when we are told to nasalize the "g", there are numerous ways to do so. There are those who pronounce this name differently; my theory is that this is caused by both cultural drift (we lost most of our British accents over the centuries) and lexical ambiguity. Moreover, we aren't speaking in Abenaki. How many of us pronounce "Beijing" the way a native does? How many of us say "New Orleans" the way a native does? I wouldn't worry much about differences in the way we speak. But based on my research -- and in line with the way my grandfather pronounces it -- I'm a kank-a-ma-ngus guy.
David Metsky said:
I did a bit of research on this one too -- pre-crash. Fascinated by language as I am, I just redit it. Kancamagus was a leader of the Penacook federation of peoples. The Penacooks came together from diverse backgrounds and various groups, united for the common cause of survival. The Penacook people spoke a variant of Abenaki.
Based on this, I have found that the g in the "-mag-" dipthong was to be nasalized in the Penacook-Abenaki -- a bit like "ng". While I don't have much access to native speakers, there are a few sound clips of Penacook-Abenaki speech on the web that back this up. (The Cowasuck group is doing a great job of keeping the language alive and online today.) A number of other languages include the nasalized "ng"; you may be familiar with this dipthong from other contexts.
Reading pronunciation guides and listening to these sound clips, my conclusion is that the original pronunciation was kank-a-ma-ngus.
As a note, the Abenaki language tends to pronounce vowels the same regardless of their syntactical placement -- i.e. the first "a" in a word will have the same sound as the terminal "a". (See http://www.cowasuck.org/language/lesson3.htm). According to that resource, A is pronounced as in "master". This would suggest against the "-maw-" pronunciation of a "-ma-" syllable in an Abenaki word.
Any attempt to transliterate sounds into letters is inherently flawed or ambiguous. Even when we are told to nasalize the "g", there are numerous ways to do so. There are those who pronounce this name differently; my theory is that this is caused by both cultural drift (we lost most of our British accents over the centuries) and lexical ambiguity. Moreover, we aren't speaking in Abenaki. How many of us pronounce "Beijing" the way a native does? How many of us say "New Orleans" the way a native does? I wouldn't worry much about differences in the way we speak. But based on my research -- and in line with the way my grandfather pronounces it -- I'm a kank-a-ma-ngus guy.
Oldsmores
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While I agree that this is logical and is the way I always pronounced it, I've heard a LOT of people in the Saratoga area pronounce it kay-der-oss, as somone posted previously...lumberzac said:
lumberzac
New member
Oldsmores said:
Kayadeross is the shortened name for the creek and mountain range. What can I say? People are lazy by nature. I'm guilty of it too. When I go fishing 1/4 mile down the road I'm don't tell people I'm going to fish the Kayaderosseras Creek, I tell them I'm going to the Kayadeross.
BTW Kayaderosseras originally referred to the area covered by the watershed of the creek. The area was originally one of the hunting grounds of the Mohawk Tribe. Kayaderosseras loosely translates to "the land of the crooked stream," which is very fitting because you could walk the creek bank for a mile and only end up 0.1 miles from your start point.
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Barry Sr
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Re: Advice for you
Good one George
mavs00 said:
Good one George
REK
Member
Re: Re: Re: Another one
el-bagr said:
crazymama
New member
KZKlimber said:
I like that abbreviation, KZ, its more true to the actual pronunciation.
I'm a believer in using the full name whenever possible. I don't know, it just seems more respectful. I agree with Alpine Summit that there is a beauty in names. I don't mind taking the time trying to spell and pronounce it properly. But I admit, sometimes I get lazy, and with a hard one like Couchsachraga, I may sometimes revert to "kook," when I'm speaking.
ksullnh
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I think it's interesting that in this discussion of spelling, grammar, and place names, neither the "Loj" nor the term "thru-hiker" has come up. I've heard that Benton MacKaye ("Mc Eye," right?) was a fan of simplified spelling, a popular movement in the early 1900s. Has anyone read a MacKaye biography, or a history of the Loj that explains the spelling? Any truth to this?
If it's true, perhaps " 'Dacks," or even "dax," aren't so bad after all?
Kevin
If it's true, perhaps " 'Dacks," or even "dax," aren't so bad after all?
Kevin
crazymama
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Melvil Dewey (of the Dewey decimal system) was a proponent of simplifying English words, and named it the "Loj." I understand that he was once part-owner of the place.
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Raymond
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Yeah, it was Melville Dewey, who shortened his name to Melvil, who rebuilt and named the Loj after Van Hoevenberg's Adirondack Lodge burned down (in the 1903? forest fire).
I never heard that MacKaye was a simplified English proponent. I've seen both through-hiker and thru-hiker used for people hiking the Appalachian Trail in one season, just as I've seen both throughway and thruway used for certain highways.
What, precisely, is the difference between pronouncing it "Macomb" and "McComb"? Is the latter "Muck-Comb"? That seems awkward to me. I've always just said "Muh-comb," as Mark S does.
So now we know who ADKatie is. Any other husband-and-wife teams here?
I never heard that MacKaye was a simplified English proponent. I've seen both through-hiker and thru-hiker used for people hiking the Appalachian Trail in one season, just as I've seen both throughway and thruway used for certain highways.
What, precisely, is the difference between pronouncing it "Macomb" and "McComb"? Is the latter "Muck-Comb"? That seems awkward to me. I've always just said "Muh-comb," as Mark S does.
So now we know who ADKatie is. Any other husband-and-wife teams here?
Ok, everyone that I know pronounces the mighty NH 100 highest peak just south of Waumbek in the Whites as Pli-ny with a hard 'i', as in 'pine'. However, my high school Latin teacher pronounced Pli-nius, the Roman historian, using a soft 'i', as in 'in'. I suspect that the peak is named for Plinius because it as the appearance of a volcanic cone and Plinius wrote about Mt. Vesuvius, I believe. All geologists that I know also pronounce the word 'plinian', as in a type of volcanic eruption, with a soft 'i'. So, which is it?
el-bagr
New member
I've heard the "i" in "Pliny" both as in "pine" and in "pin", and both from locals. While locals seem to use the "pine" pronunciation more frequently, I've always prefered the short-i ("pin") option -- as in the name of the author/scientist.
On the other hand, all us smart-alec amateur linguists can be wrong despite being ostensibly correct. Ever visit the Absaroka range in Montana? Using logic, parse that one out -- "ab-sa-ro-ka". Pretty straightforward, right? Say that to a local and see how wrong you are -- it's the "ab-sor-ka" or "ab-sor-kee" range: despite orthography, the O and the R are transposed in local speech.
Etymology won't help you convince the locals -- Absaroka is the anglicized Crow word for their people, "Apsalooke". I had a neat discussion with a Crow tribe member on top of Pompey's Pillar along the Yellowstone River about the pronunciation. His native pronunciation was in line with the English spelling: "ab-sa-%o-ka" where % denotes a consonant somewhere between L and R. His take on why most local people didn't use a similar pronunciation: ignorance and disrespect. Still, pronounce that word the way it looks when talking to someone on Togwotee Pass and you'll get an amused smile as they check your license plate to see where you're from.
You don't have to go that far to find confusing orthographic representations of spoken native words: try counting the Ns and Rs in Nesowadnehunk as written, then as spoken.
On the other hand, all us smart-alec amateur linguists can be wrong despite being ostensibly correct. Ever visit the Absaroka range in Montana? Using logic, parse that one out -- "ab-sa-ro-ka". Pretty straightforward, right? Say that to a local and see how wrong you are -- it's the "ab-sor-ka" or "ab-sor-kee" range: despite orthography, the O and the R are transposed in local speech.
Etymology won't help you convince the locals -- Absaroka is the anglicized Crow word for their people, "Apsalooke". I had a neat discussion with a Crow tribe member on top of Pompey's Pillar along the Yellowstone River about the pronunciation. His native pronunciation was in line with the English spelling: "ab-sa-%o-ka" where % denotes a consonant somewhere between L and R. His take on why most local people didn't use a similar pronunciation: ignorance and disrespect. Still, pronounce that word the way it looks when talking to someone on Togwotee Pass and you'll get an amused smile as they check your license plate to see where you're from.
You don't have to go that far to find confusing orthographic representations of spoken native words: try counting the Ns and Rs in Nesowadnehunk as written, then as spoken.
SherpaKroto
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And let's not foget Wassataquoik. From 2 separate BSP rangers, I got 2 different pronunciations. "WAS ta qwok" and "was SAW ta qwok". I guess I'll just have to get out there and see for myself
As for Couchsachraga, the word that came to mind while hiking it doesn't sound like any that have been given. I'm starting to warm up to that mountain though - maybe Alpine is right after all.
As for Couchsachraga, the word that came to mind while hiking it doesn't sound like any that have been given. I'm starting to warm up to that mountain though - maybe Alpine is right after all.
