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SAR-EMT40
Well-known member
Saw this yesterday.
Signing a wavier is meaningless if negligence was involved and this was truly negligence.
Anyone with altered mental status from dehydration needs immediate attention. They recognized it and did nothing. That is not the standard of care you would expect from people with even Wilderness first aid training which some had. Even the army has stopped rationing water during training. There is no way to "teach" your body to get use to too little water and even the army no longer does this. I also don't understand why a "survival school" is teaching people to move during the daytime in conditions like that. Every military school I have been to has taught us to ration sweat and in desert areas move only at night and try to stay out of the sun during the day.
There should have been criminal charges. I fully expect that there will be civil action and the waiver will only show that BOSS expected that he might die because of what they were doing. That is why he had to sign the wavier.
Keith
Signing a wavier is meaningless if negligence was involved and this was truly negligence.
Anyone with altered mental status from dehydration needs immediate attention. They recognized it and did nothing. That is not the standard of care you would expect from people with even Wilderness first aid training which some had. Even the army has stopped rationing water during training. There is no way to "teach" your body to get use to too little water and even the army no longer does this. I also don't understand why a "survival school" is teaching people to move during the daytime in conditions like that. Every military school I have been to has taught us to ration sweat and in desert areas move only at night and try to stay out of the sun during the day.
There should have been criminal charges. I fully expect that there will be civil action and the waiver will only show that BOSS expected that he might die because of what they were doing. That is why he had to sign the wavier.
Keith
Tuco
New member
Past Thread
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13480&highlight=survival
Topic discussed last year. A senseless death.
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13480&highlight=survival
Topic discussed last year. A senseless death.
As bad as this sounds, this still stands out to me:
"A man died of thirst during a wilderness-survival exercise designed to test his physical and mental toughness"
"He and 11 other hikers from various walks of life were being led by expert guides on a wilderness-survival adventure designed to test their physical and mental toughness."
Certainly, this whole program needs to be reevaluated. Nonetheless, one has to take some personal responsibility in going into something like this - it's not a summer fantasy baseball camp.
I'll be interested to hear the whole story - there was a lot of backlash from the general public awhile back when someone died up on Everest...when you saw the full story (or the special on Discovery I think it was), it makes a bit more sense...sometimes you can't force someone to drink or to turn back when they have gone (temporarily) insane.
"A man died of thirst during a wilderness-survival exercise designed to test his physical and mental toughness"
"He and 11 other hikers from various walks of life were being led by expert guides on a wilderness-survival adventure designed to test their physical and mental toughness."
Certainly, this whole program needs to be reevaluated. Nonetheless, one has to take some personal responsibility in going into something like this - it's not a summer fantasy baseball camp.
I'll be interested to hear the whole story - there was a lot of backlash from the general public awhile back when someone died up on Everest...when you saw the full story (or the special on Discovery I think it was), it makes a bit more sense...sometimes you can't force someone to drink or to turn back when they have gone (temporarily) insane.
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dvbl
Guest
Tuco said:
Yes, it was discussed last year, but..."Nearly a year later, documents obtained by The Associated Press under the Freedom of Information Act reveal those and other previously undisclosed details..."
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dvbl
Guest
rocket21 said:
from the article:
"...And the guides, it turned out, were carrying emergency water on that torrid summer day.
Buschow wasn't told that, and he wasn't offered any."
dvbl said:
I'm still a bit skeptical...I've personally seen the other side of similar (though not death related) lawsuits...it's possible he wasn't offered any because he was determined (100 yards) to go forth and be left alone...I know that if I were crazy enough to do that (which I'm not), I'd not want to give up a football field short of my goal.
Tuco
New member
dvbl said:
Yeah, I was providing last years link as a way for people to see how they may have reacted last year as to now when more details are available.
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dvbl
Guest
Tuco said:
Good idea. Then and now perspectives. Thanks.
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dvbl
Guest
rocket21 said:
I'm really not trying to be a wise a##, but did you actually read the whole story? There are links at the bottom of the page which will take you to pages 2 and 3. Page 3 says this...
"He said he could not go on," staff member Shawn O'Neal wrote two days later in a statement ordered by the Garfield County Sheriff's Office. "I felt that he could make it this short distance and told him he could do it as I have seen many students sore, dehydrated and saying 'can't' do something only to find that they have strength beyond their conceived limits."
O'Neal didn't inform Buschow about his emergency water.
"I wanted him to accomplish getting to the water and the cave for rest," he wrote. "He asked me to go get the water for him. I said I was not going to leave him. ... Shortly thereafter I had a bad feeling and turned to Dave and found no sign of breathing."
giggy
New member
well - I always thought by becoming dehydrated, it made me more of a tough guy. I do my best fighting when parched.
A very tragic story.
Here are a couple of other links that might be of interest:
Boulder Outdoor Survival School: http://www.boss-inc.com
Dave Buschow: http://www.rememberdave.net
Here are a couple of other links that might be of interest:
Boulder Outdoor Survival School: http://www.boss-inc.com
Dave Buschow: http://www.rememberdave.net
Maddy
Well-known member
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"The guides did not want him to fail the $3,175 course."
Is money the bottom line here?
It reminds me of the Fisher/Hall fiasco on Everest several years ago.
I wonder if these guides were Wilderness First Responders or if they had just completed a Wilderness First Aid course. They might not have been adequately trained in recognizing S/S of severe dehydration.
Combine lack of adequate training and the money factor and you have a recipe for disaster.
Is money the bottom line here?
It reminds me of the Fisher/Hall fiasco on Everest several years ago.
I wonder if these guides were Wilderness First Responders or if they had just completed a Wilderness First Aid course. They might not have been adequately trained in recognizing S/S of severe dehydration.
Combine lack of adequate training and the money factor and you have a recipe for disaster.
griffin
Active member
According to the BOSS website, their guides do have wilderness first aid training (although they don't specify how much)
im0, the "he was only 100 yards from the cave" is a red herring because he never should have been able to get that far before they intervened. The man was halucinating, for dog's sake.
im0, the "he was only 100 yards from the cave" is a red herring because he never should have been able to get that far before they intervened. The man was halucinating, for dog's sake.
SAR-EMT40
Well-known member
The things that really bother me about this story aside from the death, obviously, is that first, they had some medical training and they didn't realize or care that altered mental status is a very serious medical condition that requires immediate, aggressive intervention. The other thing is that all the survival classes and reading and military training I have had all say the same thing about travel in those conditions. Don't do it during the day. They all say to not travel during the day and conserve sweat. Travel at night when it is cooler and try to remain in shade or under cover during the day. If this is a survival course then why are they doing things contrary to everything I have learned and read about survival under those conditions? The fact is that this is not a survival course regardless how it was billed. It was a course teaching you to do unnecessary things and putting yourself at jeopardy so you could have bragging rights about how you were abused and got through it. They are teaching things that are not only counter intuitive but also not in line with standard training and will get people killed in a real survival situations.
As a school their guides failed miserably in accomplishing what the minimum standard of what a guides duty is, which is to protect their client. As guides with medical training they failed miserably in protecting their patient, especially when their patient was beyond helping himself leading to his death.
Keith
As a school their guides failed miserably in accomplishing what the minimum standard of what a guides duty is, which is to protect their client. As guides with medical training they failed miserably in protecting their patient, especially when their patient was beyond helping himself leading to his death.
Keith
Squintyken
New member
Death defying feats, bragging rights, peacock feathers
first off, sad to hear about someone else's tragedy. every person is someone's child.
secondly, there are the simplest of every day lessons to learn, probably already covered: avoid hiking in ovens, drink plenty of water, keep an eye on companions and encourage eachother to drink water and eat enough calories, etc. etc.
I wish to delve a little deeper, perhaps some wild speculations, so caveat emptor... but i'll try to limit my guesses to myself, and whether or not anyone else can identify with me will be completely up to you.
there was something about the advertizing for the survival school saying "find the destination is really yourself". "find out what you're made of" seems to be a common theme of adventure programs - and there are many different levels of risk, from reasonable and measured to who-knows-what out there. reminds me of "Temet Nosce", "know thyself" in The Matrix.
there are many ways to learn to know thyself: listening to family, friends, loved ones reflect back to you things which you might not be able to see in yourself. therapy, 12 step programs, religion, meditation might all be approaches to understand one's own motivations, expectations, fears, strengths, weaknesses etc. These opportunities for social interaction and subsequent reflection could occur in events centered around outdoor adventure, with varying levels of risk. or they could occur in a quiet museum indoors... I believe that the external goings-on are not as important as the listening and other stuff which happens inside.
a couple broad theories about motivation for ALL human behavior:
1) economists: most people make most of their decisions based on self interest. greed, period. it is only competition, the "invisible hand" which restrains this greed.
2) psychology / social biology: 'survival of the fittest' in context of a social animal will involve displays of ability to produce offspring and provide for them...
eventually, directly or indirectly, it's all about sex?
(signifant caveat - i'm not an economist, psychologist, or social biologist)
my guess is that it's all Contests to prove myself and come away with bragging rights.
and in order for a feat to be death-defying, someone within living memory must have died from it, so someone else has to die within the next few years for this collective
"game" to continue to work.
this has been around forever:
if i recall correctly, climbing the Eiger in Switzerland in the 1930s became a death-cult.
more locally, an average of 1 or 2 deaths every decade jumping into Quincy Quarries (MA, until it was filled?).
I jumped (and rock climbed) there in the 80s, from the over-hang, where you absolutely could not help but hit the water, and only after watching dozens of others not hit anything under the surface.
but of course someone has to push it up to the next level, like Russian Roulette. (I think the fatalities occured when some guys had to take a running start off tippy boulders located back far from the edge, and some boulders followed them in, or they didn't clear the rocks below).
and like a writer for a Yankee magazine article on the Quincy Quarry deaths pointed out way back when- it's not the Quarry that's the hazard,
it's the risk-taking competitive behavior of young men that's the enduring "problem". If it wasn't the Quarry, or the BOSS desert march, or Ice Climbing Huntington Ravine, or joinging the Marines, it would be something else... where death is a significant possibility.
it's kind of neat in a way to trip over hidden motivations. it's unnerving to discover self-delusion. shallow comfort to point it out in others. i know i still pay for my "education" which finally yielded a self-awareness of denial.
on a lighter note, I can admit that i got my 4000 footer patches like Peacock feathers - it's a display. within the right group (hikers) it points to something that we have in common, and yet says I'm fitter than many...
so... my tent or yours?
of course, guessing about ultimate motives does NOT detract from the adventure of Quarry jumping, or ice climbing, or bushwacking...
one relief the self-awareness has given me though is that I do not have to labor under the illusions of "MORE". even if i win this competition, there will always be MORE competition, more prestige, more money, etc.
If i have to move 10 feet from where I am right now to be happy, I never will be. (Tim Hansel). (other words to ponder besides happiness might be: contentment, satisfaction, and serenity).
somehow I can get "it": that the Joy is IN the Journey. sure, goals can get me started, but is the peakbagging list serving me, or was I serving it?
first off, sad to hear about someone else's tragedy. every person is someone's child.
secondly, there are the simplest of every day lessons to learn, probably already covered: avoid hiking in ovens, drink plenty of water, keep an eye on companions and encourage eachother to drink water and eat enough calories, etc. etc.
I wish to delve a little deeper, perhaps some wild speculations, so caveat emptor... but i'll try to limit my guesses to myself, and whether or not anyone else can identify with me will be completely up to you.
there was something about the advertizing for the survival school saying "find the destination is really yourself". "find out what you're made of" seems to be a common theme of adventure programs - and there are many different levels of risk, from reasonable and measured to who-knows-what out there. reminds me of "Temet Nosce", "know thyself" in The Matrix.
there are many ways to learn to know thyself: listening to family, friends, loved ones reflect back to you things which you might not be able to see in yourself. therapy, 12 step programs, religion, meditation might all be approaches to understand one's own motivations, expectations, fears, strengths, weaknesses etc. These opportunities for social interaction and subsequent reflection could occur in events centered around outdoor adventure, with varying levels of risk. or they could occur in a quiet museum indoors... I believe that the external goings-on are not as important as the listening and other stuff which happens inside.
a couple broad theories about motivation for ALL human behavior:
1) economists: most people make most of their decisions based on self interest. greed, period. it is only competition, the "invisible hand" which restrains this greed.
2) psychology / social biology: 'survival of the fittest' in context of a social animal will involve displays of ability to produce offspring and provide for them...
eventually, directly or indirectly, it's all about sex?
(signifant caveat - i'm not an economist, psychologist, or social biologist)
my guess is that it's all Contests to prove myself and come away with bragging rights.
and in order for a feat to be death-defying, someone within living memory must have died from it, so someone else has to die within the next few years for this collective
"game" to continue to work.
this has been around forever:
if i recall correctly, climbing the Eiger in Switzerland in the 1930s became a death-cult.
more locally, an average of 1 or 2 deaths every decade jumping into Quincy Quarries (MA, until it was filled?).
I jumped (and rock climbed) there in the 80s, from the over-hang, where you absolutely could not help but hit the water, and only after watching dozens of others not hit anything under the surface.
but of course someone has to push it up to the next level, like Russian Roulette. (I think the fatalities occured when some guys had to take a running start off tippy boulders located back far from the edge, and some boulders followed them in, or they didn't clear the rocks below).
and like a writer for a Yankee magazine article on the Quincy Quarry deaths pointed out way back when- it's not the Quarry that's the hazard,
it's the risk-taking competitive behavior of young men that's the enduring "problem". If it wasn't the Quarry, or the BOSS desert march, or Ice Climbing Huntington Ravine, or joinging the Marines, it would be something else... where death is a significant possibility.
it's kind of neat in a way to trip over hidden motivations. it's unnerving to discover self-delusion. shallow comfort to point it out in others. i know i still pay for my "education" which finally yielded a self-awareness of denial.
on a lighter note, I can admit that i got my 4000 footer patches like Peacock feathers - it's a display. within the right group (hikers) it points to something that we have in common, and yet says I'm fitter than many...
so... my tent or yours?
of course, guessing about ultimate motives does NOT detract from the adventure of Quarry jumping, or ice climbing, or bushwacking...
one relief the self-awareness has given me though is that I do not have to labor under the illusions of "MORE". even if i win this competition, there will always be MORE competition, more prestige, more money, etc.
If i have to move 10 feet from where I am right now to be happy, I never will be. (Tim Hansel). (other words to ponder besides happiness might be: contentment, satisfaction, and serenity).
somehow I can get "it": that the Joy is IN the Journey. sure, goals can get me started, but is the peakbagging list serving me, or was I serving it?
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dvbl
Guest
I was trying my hardest to hang in there to see how it ended, but somewhere around paragraph #20 I had to bow out when you implied that joining the Marine Corps is a "problem".
Oh, and good luck trying to curb the "risk-taking competitive behavior of young men".
Oh, and good luck trying to curb the "risk-taking competitive behavior of young men".
Squintyken
New member
quotation marks meant to imply Ambiguity
the quotation marks around the word "problem" were meant to imply Ambiguity.
emails and bulletin boards do not include tone of voice and facial expression...
also, we're starting out as rank strangers, with unknown common values and priorities.
so i have "lurked before I leapt" around VFTT.
therefore to clarify, I am NOT against someone joining the marines, or ice climbing.
for what it's worth, my Dad landed A6's on aircraft carriers as a marine, way before Top Gun came out.
and, no i do not expect to "cure" young men (or women) of competitive risk taking behavior.
I was just wondering out loud where does it come from? How to handle the drives and urges, etc. is up to each person to figure out.
maybe learn from watching others occasionally, and talk about it?
the quotation marks around the word "problem" were meant to imply Ambiguity.
emails and bulletin boards do not include tone of voice and facial expression...
also, we're starting out as rank strangers, with unknown common values and priorities.
so i have "lurked before I leapt" around VFTT.
therefore to clarify, I am NOT against someone joining the marines, or ice climbing.
for what it's worth, my Dad landed A6's on aircraft carriers as a marine, way before Top Gun came out.
and, no i do not expect to "cure" young men (or women) of competitive risk taking behavior.
I was just wondering out loud where does it come from? How to handle the drives and urges, etc. is up to each person to figure out.
maybe learn from watching others occasionally, and talk about it?
blacknblue
Active member
SAR-EMT40 said:
I thought this was spot on. It doesn't seem like they were teaching much of anything. It is an andro-laced endurance test, nothing more. (...and for less than $4000! Sign up now!)
I'm all for pushing people beyond their preconceived limitations, but once the client is no longer Alert & Oriented, then he/she is no longer fit to make decisions for him/herself, and the guide needs to intervene. True, we don't have all the facts at hand, but it seems like gross negligence on BOSS's part. How is the client supposed to know to ask for water when 1) the client is repeatedly told to push on despite hallucinations, and 2) the client doesn't even know that there IS water on the guide's person?
