$25,000 fine assessed for teen hiker

[sardog1]

Ok, its understandable to control costs by implementing a statute, but what (in this case) constitutes negligence or recklessness?

Things seen and unseen so far, which is why I have refrained on commenting on the appropriateness of the recovery bill being sent. Personally, I would like to see this one go to trial. Without that, we have only part of the picture.

 

[NewHampshire]

Now hold on there you kids! If you are rescued in a National Park, don't your federal taxes pay for the service? Isn't that a National Forest? Didn't I pay my taxes?

No. No they don't. And indeed this very issue we are debating would never have taken place if it was the USFS doing the rescuing. Hell, it would probably be a non issue if the the Federal government jacked some money into the F&G budget for SAR, but they don't. Basically a STATE agency is being asked to perform rescue duties on FEDERAL property without goving them any moeny to do so.

Hotels in the sky,

Huh?

permits,

What permits?

smog railway,

You mean the Cog railways which has recently taken numerous steps to replace their coal trains with more practicle and enviromentally appealing diesel trains?

private camping sites,

Uhhh, dude, every state I have ever been to has private campgrounds, so what exactly are you bitching about?

removing trail markers,taking out bridges,

*Cough* FEDERAL AGENCY DOING IT, NOT STATE*cough*

knocking down lean-tos n not replacing em, AMC RMC mobsters robbing the tourists. Love the money but hate to work for it.

Ummm, ok, I am no fan of the AMC "business side", but the RMC? They are everything the AMC is not. They are a great organization. But regardless, I would like to point out that the AMC is a MASSACHUSETTS born, raised and run organization, thank you very much.

Brian

 

[J.Dub]

The NH AG is not a he - her name is Kelly Ayotte and I used to race bicycles with her on weekends and go on training rides with her during the week.

Thanks for the heads-up, Tim.

I'm usually a little more on-the-ball when it comes to not making sexist assumptions like I did, so I offer my apologies if I offended anybody.

 

[w7xman]

Correction. She resigned on July 7, 2009, which I had not heard.

(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Ayotte)

Tim

I was gonna say, Kelly Ayotte was sooooo last week.

Lynch nominated Michael Delaney to replace her:
http://www.unionleader.com/article....rticleId=2a94b899-0345-41ab-8c9d-4483fddfc1f4

So back to the question, is the AG an outdoorsman?
Anybody hiked, biked, skied or fished with him?

 

[bandana4me]

I was staying out of this issue but …..

I am in agreement with Chomp and New Hampshire on this issue. Let’s clarify one thing:


neg⋅li⋅gence
 
–noun
1. the quality, fact, or result of being negligent; neglect: negligence in discharging one's responsibilities.
2. an instance of being negligent: a downfall brought about by many negligences.
3. Law. the failure to exercise that degree of care that, in the circumstances, the law requires for the protection of other persons or those interests of other persons that may be injuriously affected by the want of such care.


Note # 3 this is where in my opinion the fine is justified. It states "the law requires for the protection of other persons (the Search and Rescue team)" How many people put their lives or well being on the line to search for the missing hiker? Did the mother notify authorities and ask them to put their lives on the line to save her son? Was there a possibility that the helicopter could have crashed or had a failure while performing the rescue (a stretch I know)? What about the families of the rescue workers who had to wait at home while their loved ones were out searching?

Are we saying there is no value to those searchers?

I know everyone will agree that searchers are the hero’s, but why should the state of New Hampshire (tax payers) be left holding the bill when they did not request the search?

Life long New Hampshire resident!

 

[Dave Bear]

whether it was or was not too ambitious really depends on that famous individual - A. Reasonable Person. What is true about this statement is the conjunction of the two operands, on e of which may have been Mason's fall (too ambitious, but he wasn't really given a choice to turn around as the poor advice came from a seemingly reliable source - AMC Pinkham.)

Many could reasonably assume that the Presidential Traverse or the Pemi Loop (or double Pemi) are too ambitious and that any injury on something that ambitious construes negligence, and yet we read dozens of TRs on these every year.



Again the law allows them to collect if the rescuee was found negligent. The definition of negligent is the sticking point here. Jeans, sneakers, cotton, etc., we'd all be hanging him out to dry.

Tim

Okay Tim, maybe not "clearly" but certainly throws up a question mark! No car spot would mean doing the mileage and elevation around to Madison then retracing your path back the same way or crossing the eastside of the gulf back to Pinkham. I am not even sure that route was broken out or reasonable to consider across the gulf in the spring snow. Regardless, do not read more into what I posted and say that construes negligence. My opinion is that it means he needed to have a backup plan using the Perch, Gray Knob, Crag Camp or maybe more than the recent purchase of the emergency bivy for me to believe he had responsibly thought out the level of what he was attempting. He survived several nights in a frightening ordeal but in mild unseasonable conditions and used his head and some skills to keep it from ending much worse. This does not cast him as superhuman and it surely doesn't absolve him of a role in the need for a rescue. Nor does it exonerate his parents from sharing the burden. They must support him in what he does and now more than ever guide him to make adult decisions about the families fair burden for the rescue. Its going to be a tough one to sort out because any number of things could have prevented the need for the rescue or the extent that had to result. Bailing to the RMC camps could have been quicker to find him and alot less costly. I'm sure the SAR people contact RMC and whoever they know of on the mountain early in their operations.

And yes, you brought up a point about Pemi Loops. Once when a team we know and care a great deal about was going to use it as a training hike a thread brought up whether it was good discretion during a storm. This was after the Franconia Ridge incidents and I suggested when experienced people take it to that level it may justify getting a SAT phone to communicate. Not as a ball and chain on their freedom but as a cautionary measure in case an injury or storm caused need for a rescue. I'm not pushing for electronics in hiking or that everyone be required to have this in their essentials but the Pemi has alot of acres and would be hard to do a complete search on if you did not know an approximate place to start in those conditions.

We all by the nature of this forum are likely taking a "hikers" point of view, a jury of Mason's "peers" may consist of people that have an entirely different view point. They may be in agreement with people that comment harshly in the Union Leader about hiking. Some folks are sick of hearing about all the very publized rescues and may want the bar set even higher than the 25K. An injury is something that can happen anywhere and not just on the mountains so I hope this helps keep this one in fair perspective!

 

[bikehikeskifish]

3. Law. the failure to exercise that degree of care that, in the circumstances, the law requires for the protection of other persons or those interests of other persons that may be injuriously affected by the want of such care.

Note # 3 this is where in my opinion the fine is justified. It states "the law requires for the protection of other persons (the Search and Rescue team)" How many people put their lives or well being on the line to search for the missing hiker?

I believe this case the law is written with respect to neglecting those in your care or under your responsibility. I.e., your kids, your parents, your pets, etc. The SAR team, including many volunteers, is not under the responsibility or care of the person being rescued. If emergency services were racing to your aid (let's say you've had a heart attack at home) and crashed does that make you negligent?

And yes, you brought up a point about Pemi Loops. Once when a team we know and care a great deal about was going to use it as a training hike a thread brought up whether it was good discretion during a storm.

Yes, I remember that well. I got questioned for asking questions about that.


I'll go out on a limb here (please rescue me if I fall) and say that a major part of the 'uproar' over the fine is that it could happen to any one of us now and we all want to believe we are not being legally negligent. The problem is, nobody can tell us if we are or aren't and we certainly can't tell ourselves.


Tim

 

[chomp]

Here is a thought - what if New Hampshire F&G had called the parents and said "We are really sorry, but our helicopter is out of service for the next 4 days. The only option we have would be to get one from Maine, but that will cost $20,000. Unfortunately, we don't ability to pay for that... "

Do you think they would have agreed to pay for the helicopter?

 

[Paradox]

Here is a thought - what if New Hampshire F&G had called the parents and said "We are really sorry, but our helicopter is out of service for the next 4 days. The only option we have would be to get one from Maine, but that will cost $20,000. Unfortunately, we don't ability to pay for that... "

Do you think they would have agreed to pay for the helicopter?

Most likely they would. This is exactly what I have to do no matter what I encounter in the dental office. If you don't call or contact they simply claim they would not have authorized it. Happens most every day in my part of the private sector.

 

[RoySwkr]

I was gonna say, Kelly Ayotte was sooooo last week.

Lynch nominated Michael Delaney to replace her:

So back to the question, is the AG an outdoorsman?
Anybody hiked, biked, skied or fished with him?

Well, KA was AG when the amount was approved

And I don't know if either of them are outdoorspeople (although Gov & family have stayed at Lonesome Lake) but most likely it was a junior attorney who reviewed the case

Here is a thought - what if New Hampshire F&G had called the parents and said "We are really sorry, but our helicopter is out of service for the next 4 days. The only option we have would be to get one from Maine, but that will cost $20,000. Unfortunately, we don't ability to pay for that... "

Suppose there was a sign at trailheads,
"If someone requests a search for you, they will be asked for a spending limit so you should leave your credit card number along with your itinerary with a friend. There are three options:
1) Free search by whatever volunteers offer to go and any on-duty conservation officers not otherwise assigned who are limited to 8 hours work per day hence can't go too far from road.
2) Search by paid staff in addition at $50 per hour, you decide how many hours.
3) Search by helicopter at $1000 per hour, if helicopter crashes you also owe $3 million."

Would this discourage enough visitors to NH that the state would finally decide to divert some rooms & meals tax to SAR?

 

[Little Rickie]

Personally, I would like to see this one go to trial. Without that, we have only part of the picture.

This make sense. Bravo!

 

[griffin]

Here is a thought - what if New Hampshire F&G had called the parents and said "We are really sorry, but our helicopter is out of service for the next 4 days. The only option we have would be to get one from Maine, but that will cost $20,000. Unfortunately, we don't ability to pay for that... "

Do you think they would have agreed to pay for the helicopter?

In a heartbeat.

But I doubt they'd be happy about it if, after the fact, they found out that people in similar situations were not asked to pay for the chopper.

I doubt any of us would be happy to be asked to pay for our rescue based on what seems like a fairly arbitrary whim, or because our case generated a lot of publicity and someone decided we'd therefor make a handy example.

 

[Little Rickie]

When I'm hiking, I don't "expect" anyone to rescue me. But this debate might be more interesting presented from a different angle. Say it's raining, and you've slipped coming down Jefferson, and your leg is shattered so you can't move. How much would you pay for someone to come get you before you die of hypothermia?

Good question.

 

[Neil]

I see a business opportunity here in undercutting F&G's 25K "rescue fee". Heck, I'd rescue anybody for $24,900.

 

[Paradox]

Suppose there was a sign at trailheads,
"If someone requests a search for you, they will be asked for a spending limit so you should leave your credit card number along with your itinerary with a friend. There are three options:
1) Free search by whatever volunteers offer to go and any on-duty conservation officers not otherwise assigned who are limited to 8 hours work per day hence can't go too far from road.
2) Search by paid staff in addition at $50 per hour, you decide how many hours.
3) Search by helicopter at $1000 per hour, if helicopter crashes you also owe $3 million."

Would this discourage enough visitors to NH that the state would finally decide to divert some rooms & meals tax to SAR?

I think this is exactly what is needed. Government and the courts has made it impossible to stay in private business without such signage. The single phone call would save the courts and lawyers a lot of billable hours. Of course, I would then have to revert to working all day.

 

[Paradox]

I see a business opportunity here in undercutting F&G's 25K "rescue fee". Heck, I'd rescue anybody for $24,900.

I see a glitch already. The only thing I can find on ebay is parts and manuals for helicopters. Nothing turnkey.

 

[The Feathered Hat]

Signs posted at trailheads clarifying liability for searches and rescues and what constitutes negligence would be quite useful, I think, except...

... there's no useful definition in the law, so far, of negligence, and

... local businesses that depend on tourist dollars would scream. Anything official, even a sign, that might keep people out of the mountains, and thus out of the local pubs, pizza parlors, supermarkets, camping shops and what have you, will be vigorously opposed by those kinds of businesses, especially in this economy.

 

[Gris]

Well

again, for the umpteenth time, LOL

while it might seem advisable and unobtrusive to add few words to some of the already existing alpine zone warning signs, you would still have to deal with the bigger issue of whether you even want people aware of how expensive SAR is, as that might have a chilling effect on admitting the need/calling for help

it would be way easier and more manageable for the SAR authorities to discuss rescue costs, along with other rescue pros and cons, with whoever calls in the rescue. of course, they would probably need to have definite protocols and record that call, esp. if someone backed off the rescue and then there were consequences...

i still, personally, keep coming back to the general notion that, at least IMO, folks shouldn't have an expectation that they will rescued. i worry that maybe with all the hoopla over these things people aren't starting to have that expectation. that would be ironic

i wonder what Alaskans would think about so many rescues being sent out, as well all these other issues. People like to say "live free or die in NH," but i think it actually applies in Alaska...

 

[Remix]

Apparently some members of the National Association of Search and Rescue have some strong feelings and suggest making a defense fund for the hiker.

Here is the story.

 

[Little Rickie]

Apparently some members of the National Association of Search and Rescue have some strong feelings and suggest making a defense fund for the hiker.

Here is the story.

The kid doesn't look very bad in the picture. I also get the impression that if he lied to his rescruers he may not of been fined but that would not be very Scout like. What a position to be in, lie and save 25k or tell the truth and pay up.

I'm glad he plans to challange the 25k