New Hampshire Fish and Game Search and Rescue Funding Hearing

[Stash]

Ah, but the CG has decided in some instances to not provide services - if a boat has engine failure or runs out of gas in good weather, they may tell the owner to engage a private tow service or row themselves ashore.

A similar thing in NH might be that somebody who was benighted on the trail in summer might be told to either wait until daylight or hire a trail runner to rush out with a flashlight - fortunately one of the best apparently thinks this service should be free and hopefully will provide it for such.

Or in some instances if things go bad in bad weather and you have the ability to communicate they may tell you to stick it out because it's unsafe for them to get too close (BDDT). But they'll have communication with the party and will act based upon that conversation. If they simply get word that someone's probably out there and have had no direct communication they'll search first and ask questions later.

 

[Craig]

Nobody is suggesting that the rescues should be "free".

What do you mean? Who is “nobody”?
Please clarify.

 

[Tim Seaver]

What do you mean? Who is “nobody”?
Please clarify.

"Nobody" as in "nobody I have seen in this thread".

Unless I missed something. Was anyone suggesting that rescues be "free"?
Or were they attempting to discuss funding mechanisms?

I have to admit "the "No Free Lunch" makes for a great slogan - it just doesn't apply here.

 

[Craig]

"Nobody" as in "nobody I have seen in this thread".

Oh, thanks
Forgive me for the question, but after 6 pages of graffiti and no facts I'm so spun around I've forgotten what the issue is.

Unless I missed something. Was anyone suggesting that rescues be "free"?

I don't know about views membership but don't the NASAR and the MRA, that you quoted in your post #76, advocate the status quo, free rescue?

 

[Stash]

...and speaking of no free lunch there really isn't one and things need to be paid for. I'd rather not see my taxes go up anymore and, even if they did, there's a pretty small likelihood that any tax funds targeted for SAR would actually make it there so I'd pay for an annual "Hiking license" just like I pay for that annual fee for using my car for hiking. I figure it's worth the posibility that it might help for time or equipment that might just save a life. Evenly if it's "only" one. And they're an unprepared tourist. From Massachusetts.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

.. And they're an unprepared tourist.

When we're in unfamiliar surroundings/settings, we're all tourists.

 

[Tim Seaver]

Oh, thanks
Forgive me for the question, but after 6 pages of graffiti and no facts I'm so spun around I've forgotten what the issue is.

I don't know about views membership but don't the NASAR and the MRA, that you quoted in your post #76, advocate the status quo, free rescue?

You may not like the principal fact, but there it is : All the major rescue orgs are dead-set against appeasing the All I Want For Xmas Is A Pound Of Reckless Masshole Flesh On My Mantle crew.

One day somebody will at least make a meek attempt to disprove what the major rescue orgs position is on this. I won't hold my breath.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

SAR on the (salt) water is called Coast Guard. I can't recall of a bill being sent by them - no matter the lack of experience or common sense of the boater. This is the case no matter the state or distance from shore (within the 200 mile limit). What's the real difference between being lost on the water and on land? Should the Army come after you? They're paid by federal funds and we all know those are unlimited (satire - not politics intended)

In my 20+ years of fishing and boating, unless you are in a Mayday scenario, you will generally get a referral to SeaTow which is not free. Inappropriate use of Mayday will cost you a lot of money.

Tim

 

[Maddy]

It's good to discuss this amongst ourselves but we need to take that next step.
I sure hope that some of the VFTT folks can attend the meeting and offer some positive suggestions for how this might be resolved. I sent Col Garabedian my two cents a while back. He was kind enough to reply.
Hope at least some folks can share their thoughts and suggestions with these good people who are willing to risk life and limb out there for all of us should the need arise.

 

[Craig]

I don't know about views membership but don't the NASAR and the MRA, that you quoted in your post #76, advocate the status quo, free rescue?

You may not like the principal fact, but there it is : All the major rescue orgs are dead-set against appeasing the All I Want For Xmas Is A Pound Of Reckless Masshole Flesh On My Mantle crew.

One day somebody will at least make a meek attempt to disprove what the major rescue orgs position is on this. I won't hold my breath.

Well, that didn't answer my question, but thanks for trying.

So as to be clear, for the sake of some facts:

Other than NH, some views members and 2 national parks, is there any other state, organization, entity, club or backyard barbeque group that advocates either a mandatory fee pre-rescue or a fine post-rescue in the US? And the 2 national parks don't count

 

[Kevin Rooney]

...Other than NH, some views members and 2 national parks, is there any other state, organization, entity, club or backyard barbeque group that advocates either a mandatory fee pre-rescue or a fine post-rescue in the US? And the 2 national parks don't count

What? Is your Google broken? Need help doing your own research?

 

[TCD]

I see a payment in the event of rescue as similar to a copay for health care. The payment is designed to be small enough not to discourage someone from getting care they really need, but large enough to discourage totally irresponsible use of the resource for care that is not needed.

I don't like paying my copay, but I understand it. And, I don't see a parade of authorities going on about how the copay will stop people from seeking care.

I think a moderate copay (somewhere around $100?) would not stop me from calling for help when I was really hurt up in the mountains, but it might discourage the folks who want to call a helicopter because they're tired. And it might, maybe, make a few folks think before they ventured out, at least far enough to bring a flashlight and a jacket.

Any argument why this wouldn't work in SAR, the way it works in health care?

Oh, and in answer to an earlier post - I remember skiing in Colorado years ago, and the trail map had a section about skier rescue (I think this was in Vail). It said, that skiers in bounds would be rescued by the Ski Patrol, but that for a skier out of bounds, rescue would "...be the responsibility of the Eagle County Sherriff, and will be costly to the skier." So there is at least one agancy that was routinely charging, 25 years ago.

 

[--M.]

You may not like the principal fact, but there it is : All the major rescue orgs are dead-set against appeasing the All I Want For Xmas Is A Pound Of Reckless Masshole Flesh On My Mantle crew.

One day somebody will at least make a meek attempt to disprove what the major rescue orgs position is on this. I won't hold my breath.

I don't even care, Tim Seaver, that you're whistling into the wind on this; you're correct. It's a form of tantrum by a frustrated group of myopics who see only expense and not the previously-applied revenue.

Furthermore, from a user standpoint, why should someone have a chopper rescue shoved down his/her throat if neither s/he nor any family/friends requested it? I agree wholeheartedly with paying one's way, through insurance and/or reasonable user fees, but it's not reasonable to have a $25000 expense descend upon you like Special Forces with lame-o due process (F&G is both judge and jury?). It's unAmerican, xenophobic and infantile. If the New Hampshire legislature devises a rational system (and this one isn't), everyone will get on board. There are several good answers, and at least one really bad one. I encourage the good people of New Hampshire to suggest a better way to their elected representatives.

As it is, my family works under a different set of rules in NH vs. when I go to NY, even with the longer trail approaches in the DAKs!

 

[Stash]

In my 20+ years of fishing and boating, unless you are in a Mayday scenario, you will generally get a referral to SeaTow which is not free. Inappropriate use of Mayday will cost you a lot of money.

Tim

MAYDAY = 911 = My friend/spouse/employee is overdue.

 

[DougPaul]

I see a payment in the event of rescue as similar to a copay for health care. The payment is designed to be small enough not to discourage someone from getting care they really need, but large enough to discourage totally irresponsible use of the resource for care that is not needed.

I don't like paying my copay, but I understand it. And, I don't see a parade of authorities going on about how the copay will stop people from seeking care.

I think a moderate copay (somewhere around $100?) would not stop me from calling for help when I was really hurt up in the mountains, but it might discourage the folks who want to call a helicopter because they're tired. And it might, maybe, make a few folks think before they ventured out, at least far enough to bring a flashlight and a jacket.

Any argument why this wouldn't work in SAR, the way it works in health care?

Yes--because it doesn't work in health care.

A study in which the copay was removed showed a decrease in overall cost of care because people came in while conditions were minor and easily treated rather than waiting until they became serious and harder to treat.

If anything, this result suggests that no charge for rescues is the better choice.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

MAYDAY = 911 = My friend/spouse/employee is overdue.

Not quite.

"Mayday" is an emergency call word indicating a life threatening emergency. It originates in nautical and aircraft radio use and has been adopted by other users. (An aircraft pilot can also declare an emergency.) It is spoken three times ("Mayday Mayday Mayday") to prevent confusion.

The call "Pan-pan Pan-pan Pan-pan" indicates a non-life-threatening emergency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan

Doug

 

[bandana4me]

First let’s stay on subject here. This is about New Hampshire rescues preformed by NHF&G. I (speaking for myself and not NH) am really not interested in what they do in Ca, Co, Europe or any other place, my concern is what happens here in NH! If NH was to follow every other state on issues we would have:
Sales TAX
State Income TAX
Seat belt laws
Helmet Laws
Be REQUIRED to have auto ins.
Our unemployment rate would probably be higher than the current, 5.3%.

Remember that 95 % of the world is FOLLOWERS!

Now let’s talk about free:
1. provided without, or not subject to, a charge or payment:
2. given without consideration of a return or reward
3. exempt from external authority, interference, restriction, etc., as a person or one's will, thought, choice, action, etc.; independent; unrestricted.

Remember we are “free” to choose dates, times and trails to hike.

The question here again is: Why is there no personal responsibility for those who REQUESTED assistance? The person is asking for and is in need of assistance and yet there should be no compensation from the person asking for help?

 

[Stash]

And 911 when used by lost hikers/tourists often indicates a fear of death because of their situation. In both instances they are seeking assistance from authorities in place to assist them in an emergency. In both cases intentional misuse can lead to punishment in some form. In both cases authorities react as if it is a true emergency until they are certain it is not.

Yes. Their wikiedia definitions differ. The intent of the initial thought remains.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

911 responses (police, fire) are paid for my local/municipal/town/property taxes
The Coast Guard is paid for by federal taxes
Ambulance transport is generally not covered. Not sure why - maybe when the ambulance is private versus when it is run by the fire department? An ambulance response without transport is not always charged - I know this personally from when I got hit by a car while riding (I was uninjured save some missing skin.)

NH F&G is self-funded - they get no money from taxes. THIS is the crux of the problem.

To Craig and his request for facts. This wasn't a fact-finding thread (per-se) to begin with. It was notice of a hearing to discuss funding options, which we have done. There have been several suggestions discussed. I suggested earlier:

...If the money has to come from somewhere, my personal choice would be to charge for parking at (some of the more popular) state park trail heads... Falling Waters, Flume, Basin, Cannon, etc. ...

and

...my fishing license (or "Outdoor Recreation License") should exempt me from the parking pass at Lafayette Place. Or maybe the one-day "pass" is good for fishing, or hiking, or whatever, EVERYWHERE... likewise the 7-day or monthly or yearly.

First let’s stay on subject here. This is about New Hampshire rescues preformed by NHF&G. I (speaking for myself and not NH) am really not interested in what they do in Ca, Co, Europe

Why not? It makes perfect sense to copy an existing model if it works and if it does not, then invent something new. It's often cheaper and more efficient, and probably (in the case of laws) has held up in court.

A study in which the copay was removed showed a decrease in overall cost of care because people came in while conditions were minor and easily treated rather than waiting until they became serious and harder to treat.

If anything, this result suggests that no charge for rescues is the better choice.

I've heard it mentioned many times that SAR feels the same way - rescue sooner before things get worse or put the victim and/or rescuers at increased or further risk (the so-called "golden day").

MAYDAY = 911 = My friend/spouse/employee is overdue.

I am not sure how overdue calls work on the ocean (by another person) but I do know that unless you are on fire, in immediate danger of sinking, or have an immediate life-threatening emergency, a mayday call is not for you. I believe that in the 911-missing-persons case, they require a 24-hour wait. If your EPIRB goes off, that will automatically trigger SAR. BUT they will try and contact you first. I've been on a boat where someone triggered it manually and unintentionally (knocked into it somehow) and the CG call the boat owner's wife and tried to raise the boat on the VHF before sending out the helo.

ETA

I should have included a tidbit on Pan-pan. If a vessel is overdue or unaccounted for, the first call that goes out is a pan-pan, i.e.

PAN-PAN, PAN-PAN, PAN-PAN. Hello all stations. This United States Coast Guard, Boston, Massachusetts Group (repeat). Break.
All mariners are requested to keep a lookout for vessel (name), last known position (lat/lon) and report all sightings to United States Coast Guard, Boston, Massachusetts Group. Out.

Tim

 

[--M.]

First let’s stay on subject here. This is about New Hampshire rescues preformed by NHF&G. I (speaking for myself and not NH) am really not interested in what they do in Ca, Co, Europe or any other place, my concern is what happens here in NH! If NH was to follow every other state on issues we would have:
Sales TAX
State Income TAX
Seat belt laws
Helmet Laws
Be REQUIRED to have auto ins.
Our unemployment rate would probably be higher than the current, 5.3%.

Remember that 95 % of the world is FOLLOWERS!

Now let’s talk about free:
1. provided without, or not subject to, a charge or payment:
2. given without consideration of a return or reward
3. exempt from external authority, interference, restriction, etc., as a person or one's will, thought, choice, action, etc.; independent; unrestricted.

Remember we are “free” to choose dates, times and trails to hike.

The question here again is: Why is there no personal responsibility for those who REQUESTED assistance? The person is asking for and is in need of assistance and yet there should be no compensation from the person asking for help?

As a citizen participant in the sandbox,
1. I don't want a free rescue. There is in fact no free lunch and I would rather negotiate something reasonable up front in the unlikely event of a need, not have a solution I wouldn't agree with forced upon me.
2. I want to pay, and then hold the payee accountable for service (you know, like a business). What I decline is the offer to be the subject of a law-enforcement operation as if I were a criminal, no thank you.
3. How can a New Hampshirite not see the big bad gubbimint in these rescue scenarios? It's supposed to be a rescue, not the capture of a felon.

New Hampshire is not an isolated paradise with its own reality. It's part of a community and would benefit from seeing how others do things (and then make a rational choice for itself). Deliberately insulating one's state from the rest of the world seems self-blinding.

NH has all the states' rights it wants and can make any law it wants. But it will then be tested in the courts and markets. This particular law is failing that test. I agree with NH's fine opportunity to show leadership with a better law.