New Hampshire Fish and Game Search and Rescue Funding Hearing

[dug]

If you can find a way to targert fees for hikers, and only hikers, I'd be willing to discuss it.

A tax on gear? I have no stats to back this up, but I would venture to guess over 60% of hiking "gear" isn't used on the trails. Hiking boots, fleece, gloves, hats, shoot...even a Gore-tex jacket can be used to shovel snow. Why should someone buying a TNF jacket have to pay a tax, and someone buying a similar jacket from a non-outdoor store not?

Trailheads? There are hundreds of trails, some in WMNF, some out, are we going to put a(nother) gate up at every entrance? How will it be policed? Are we just going to add a $1 or two to the existing fee? What about those that don't hike on trails....do they get a free pass? What about those that are walking not in the "mountains", do they get a free pass? Why is there a fee to walk up Pine Mountain, but not Mt. Uncanoonuc?

How much of the F&G budget was spent over the last couple of years rescuing capsized canoers, kids riding bikes across rivers, lost Alzheimer's patients, etc.? How do you put a fee on that? Not to be insensitive...but because you are old and lost you don't cause a stir, but if you are young and from Massachusetts, you do?

Tim's idea is on the right track...targeting certain trailheads may work.

 

[psmart]

Hunters, Fishermen, ATV owners, Sled owners, etc all have to pay license, use and/or registration fees and taxes.

Even my NH sailboat registration includes a S&R fee.

 

[griffin]

Are you referring to this?

Additional information relative to financing SARs in NH.

I was, indeed, thank you

Not saying I wouldn't be willing to pay into the SAR funds just as the hunting/fishing/orv communities do if they come up with a sane and equitable way to do it, but given the revenues and funding mechanisms they already have, I'm puzzled that SAR funding remains an issue.

 

[marchowes]

I think some of the stuffed suits should take a good look at what Colorado is doing - NH's ham-handed bufoonery on the Mason "rescue" echoed rather loudly in the press, and that costs tourist money.

Do you have any proof that it cost the state tourist money? Not saying I disagree with your points in general but It sounds like a baloney conclusion to support your theory. Have you been northbound on I-93 on a Friday evening?

And actually, let me throw a third out there ... if you thought that the cell phone would cause people to be more lackadaisical about preparation and planning for being out in the woods, what do you think a guaranteed rescue for just a small fee would mean?

Finest point made thus far.

 

[Tim Seaver]

Have you been northbound on I-93 on a Friday evening?

Yes, I have. And I am guessing that your theory is: The fact that you see lots of cars on 93 is proof that NH's idiotic SAR policies have had no effect whatsoever on tourism. Speaking of baloney and conclusions, that is.

Do you think articles like this, in major media outlets, have any effect on where people decide to recreate? I certainly do.

Warning: Don't get lost in New Hampshire

 

[Chip]

Even my NH sailboat registration includes a S&R fee.

Right. I forgot about the boat owners as they haven't gotten to canoes and kayaks yet. Have they ?

Not saying I wouldn't be willing to pay into the SAR funds just as the hunting/fishing/orv communities do if they come up with a sane and equitable way to do it, but given the revenues and funding mechanisms they already have, I'm puzzled that SAR funding remains an issue.

I don't have any of the figures, but it's not equitable now. The fees that the boating/hunting/fishing/orv communities pay now go, certainly, partially towards the hiking/climbing community. I'm sure a lot of it goes into general services as well.

A tax on gear? I have no stats to back this up, but I would venture to guess over 60% of hiking "gear" isn't used on the trails.

I think that's fine, it's part of premium to sport "real" gear to the mall. I'd venture to say 99% of the guns, bows and ammo purchased don't kill an animal, but there's still an excise tax on their purchase, right ?

 

[marchowes]

Yes, I have. And I am guessing that your theory is: The fact that you see lots of cars on 93 is proof that NH's idiotic SAR policies have had no effect whatsoever on tourism. Speaking of baloney and conclusions, that is.

Do you think articles like this, in major media outlets, have any effect on where people decide to recreate? I certainly do.

Warning: Don't get lost in New Hampshire

A predictable response from someone who has no actual evidence.

1) insult
2) come up with more BS as if it were fact.

The onus of responsibility in your claim is to prove that there has been an impact. Instead you provide anecdotal "evidence". Which is really an opinion.

I don't think your proposals are wrong. But I think you need to go for a hike for 30 minutes. Preferably not in New Hampshire.

 

[psmart]

Right. I forgot about the boat owners as they haven't gotten to canoes and kayaks yet. Have they ?

Last I checked, canoes and kayaks don't have to be registered in NH, unless they have a motor.

 

[Tim Seaver]

I think my response was pretty tame, marc. If you are offended by the "baloney" terminology, I would suggest that in the future you would avoid being the first to use it.

I don't have proof, per se, that tourism has been irreparably damaged by it's backwater SAR mentality, no.

However, I do think that NH's reputation took a serious hit amongst the professionals in the SAR world from what I have read on the intertoobz, and I do think that the plethora of negative media (that flowed like the swollen spring waters of the Great Gulf) in the wake of the Mason incident had, and is still having some type of negative impact on the state's image as tourist and hiker friendly.

NH needs to get it's act together on this. $14 million spent on promoting tourism, but they just can't find a way to take care of the people coming to the state. People who spend BILLIONS here. Really pathetic.

 

[Puck]

Hunters, Fishermen, ATV owners, Sled owners, etc all have to pay license, use and/or registration fees and taxes, have for years,

Some states also have fees or taxes on fishing/trapping/hunting equipement. The money raised goes into a fund to protect habitat so that the game species do well.

Understood that this is an easily defined group. Hikers and campers not so much so a tax system on our equipment maybe tough to implement.

The user Pay model of the hunters has been considered for bird houses, feeders, feed etc so that more money can be raised for conservation. No money is targeted for SAR, however. So if you get lost or injured you you will have some great surroundings with a plethora of songbirds to sing your requiem.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Since I already purchase an annual fishing license, I would prefer a system which does not double charge me. Selfish, I know. I.e., my fishing license (or "Outdoor Recreation License") should exempt me from the parking pass at Lafayette Place. Or maybe the one-day "pass" is good for fishing, or hiking, or whatever, EVERYWHERE... likewise the 7-day or monthly or yearly.

Tim

 

[dr_wu002]

Since I already purchase an annual fishing license, I would prefer a system which does not double charge me. Selfish, I know. I.e., my fishing license (or "Outdoor Recreation License") should exempt me from the parking pass at Lafayette Place. Or maybe the one-day "pass" is good for fishing, or hiking, or whatever, EVERYWHERE... likewise the 7-day or monthly or yearly.

Tim

If you just stopped fishing and focused more on hiking maybe you wouldn't have this problem, potentially.

Just sayin...

-Dr. Wu

 

[bikehikeskifish]

If you just stopped fishing and focused more on hiking maybe you wouldn't have this problem, potentially.

Just sayin...

-Dr. Wu

Then I wouldn't need the fishing license any more. $35 less the state gets from me. Just sayin...

Tim

 

[Craig]

...but given the revenues and funding mechanisms they already have, I'm puzzled that SAR funding remains an issue.

I think these things come about thusly:

Probably some big, fat, cigar smoking, highbacked plush leather chair sitting, bean counting, barking, bureaucrat was reviewing an abridged annual budget in the presence of some skinny, meek, measly, fearful, dorky classes wearing department head, while sitting across from him at a 50' solid oak conference table with inlaid alligator skin bumper guards.

I envision the resulting conversation going something like this:

Note:
1. big, fat, cigar smoking, highbacked plush leather chair sitting, bean counting, barking, bureaucrat: (for clarity I'll call him, Ahole for short)
2. skinny, meek, measly, fearful, dorky classes wearing department head: (for clarity I'll call him, pussy for short)

Ahole: (barking at pussy) What is this crap in your budget about 300K for SAR? Didn't I tell you to get rid of that last year?

Pussy: (trying to be somewhat assertive and professional) I've been trying, over the years, to articulate an understand of the situation to you. We get a lot of Urban, Upwardly Mobile folks coming to NH to hike and have fun....

Ahole: (cutting him off) Listen, do you now how many trees had to be cut down to build my house? Do you? A whole freaking bunch. Do you think I give a rats @ss about some freaking treehugging Massholes? Don't try that politically correct, phyco-babble bullsh*t on me.

Pussy: (now thinking Ahole is going to rip him a new one - again) Yes sir, I understand but, we tried to solve the problem with that draconian irresponsible hiker charging thing a few years ago but that other bureaucrat starting whining about having to do more work.

Ahole: (the veins in his neck starting to show) Yeah, I fixed that screw up for you too. I called that lazy @ss pencil pusher and told him if he didn't like the way we wrote the law he should rewrite it himself. In an amazing demonstration of intellect, he did what I told him to do. Now we have a law that allows us to pick the pockets of those treehugging massholes after they screw up. Unfortunately, some lazy pencil pusher caved on charging that kid a couple of years ago and set a legal precedence. Cheezes...while I continue to try to build monuments you mindless mothers destroy them.

Pussy: (thinking, what else can I say) Yeah, that was a brilliant move sir. Hopefully someday I'll be able to think on your level. In the mean time I've commissioned a committee to look further into this issue to come up with ideas to solve this problem.

Ahole: (starting to foam at the mouth) WTF, do I have to do everything around here? Instead of picking the pockets of all those treehugging massholes after they need a SAR rescue just pick their pockets before they need SAR services. Come up with some kind on fee, spin it and sell it to the media. This ain't rocket science here. WTF are the tax payers paying you for if I have to think of everything.

Pussy: (without anything intelligent to add, resolves to sucking up) Yup, that’s why you're the man and I always look forward to the wisdom I can gain by being mentored by you. That’s an excellent idea sir. I'll push that to the committee.

Ahole: (feeling validated as to his grand superiority) Well listen, you aren't a complete retard. At least you can take orders. After you're done with that committee bullsh*t, you better come back to me and put some meat on my plate.

Pussy: Yes sir

Pussy thinking: (as he walks out of the bosses office) The good news is, he'll forget about this again until next year. The bad news is, next year he'll tear me a new one again over this same issue.

That's probably how it goes down, although I may be wrong.

 

[dug]

I think that's fine, it's part of premium to sport "real" gear to the mall. I'd venture to say 99% of the guns, bows and ammo purchased don't kill an animal, but there's still an excise tax on their purchase, right ?

Define "real" for me. Tents? Does that include the Coleman 10-person tent that never leaves the yard? Snow shoes (mine haven't seen a trail in a few years, but they are used a few times a week around my house).

At least the hunting gear mentioned above is at least for activities related to hunting. I don't want to see a tax on a Gore-Tex rain jacket because someone wants to keep dry while watching a football game.

 

[RoySwkr]

Note one of the largest SAR expenses is the dive team, whose most recent exploit was finding a murder victim last seen using a home computer in Stewartstown. Tax the Internet to pay for SAR

Why isn't the committee accepting written public comments? That way the views membership could agree on one message to deliver in writing.

They are publicly stating that this issue is a pure revenue issue.
Is this true or is this managing the news?

I believe the committee will accept written comments, but no way will VFTT ever agree on what to say

Now S&R is paid for mostly by hunting/fishing licenses and the people who buy them don't see why they have to pay to rescue granola-eaters who try to ban hunting when the department is cutting back services to hunters. So it is a revenue issue with some principle involved.

The CORSAR card system is working quite well.

In what way?

I have climbed over 100 peaks in Colo and never saw anyplace where it was suggested I buy one, nor do I know anyone who has one. If they actually bill anyone who doesn't have one, I've never heard of it.

 

[Chip]

Define "real" for me. Tents? Does that include the Coleman 10-person tent that never leaves the yard? Snow shoes (mine haven't seen a trail in a few years, but they are used a few times a week around my house).

At least the hunting gear mentioned above is at least for activities related to hunting. I don't want to see a tax on a Gore-Tex rain jacket because someone wants to keep dry while watching a football game.

Well, we're splitting hairs. Maybe Coleman and GoreTex could decide which products they'd like to label "real" or not. I'd bet they sell more of the Labeled Real products, with the excise tax, even if those never left the backyard. Bows, Firearms and ammo are the same deal. Most never leave a yard or range.

 

[RoySwkr]

The public has long since reconciled themselves to the fact they have to pay to park on USFS land because the USFS makes quite sure that they get something for their money, ie better maintained trails. They publish an illustrated annual report to the public with a little of that money too, available at info centers and trailheads.

I think urban folk are just used to paying for parking and don't give it a thought. I regularly avoid paying the WMNF fee because I think the money is more often spent wrongly such as removing bridges than on anything useful. The first poster I saw of "Your Parking Fees At Work" was on the Signal Ridge Trail which was heavily overgrown and showed no indication of any improvement. Their first booklet showed nature programs in elementary schools as a use of parking fees.

 

[dug]

Well, we're splitting hairs. Maybe Coleman and GoreTex could decide which products they'd like to label "real" or not. I'd bet they sell more of the Labeled Real products, with the excise tax, even if those never left the backyard. Bows, Firearms and ammo are the same deal. Most never leave a yard or range.

Just playing Devil's Advocate, so we're clear. But, I'll continue. I could, in theory, skirt the whole issue and hike in jeans, cotton sweatshirt & Timberland workboots like I did many moons ago, and not pay a dime. Shoot, on most summer dayhikes, the only real hiking "gear" I have on is a pack (or is it a bookbag?). Otherwise, I'm pretty much head to toe in cotton and sneakers.

My wife, who rarely ventures beyond the pool in the backyard, has a $500 Arc'Tyrx jacket and she'd pay to support the F&G.

I do see this as an issue, but I am not comfortable with any suggestions so far (other than buying a fishing license or the like, which is a good idea).

 

[Puck]

Maybe Coleman and GoreTex could decide which products they'd like to label "real" or not. I'd bet they sell more of the Labeled Real products, with the excise tax, even if those never left the backyard.

So if I got a real poncho and not a Sears poncho I would be taxed?


And another thing why can't eating granola and hunting mix?