Anybody here sail?

[SAR-EMT40]

I know its a little off topic but hopefully the mods won't mind a little diversion.

I was wondering if anyone here sails. I have a Dart 18 catamaran and I have a few questions and was wondering if anyone on here maybe has a Hobie or god help me a Dart.

Keith

 

[DougPaul]

Is your question specific to a detail about the craft, or more general? There are at least several sailors on this BBS. (I am one.)

Or try just asking your question...

Doug

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Is your question specific to a detail about the craft, or more general? There are at least several sailors on this BBS. (I am one.)

Or try just asking your question...

Doug

Thanks a lot Doug. I did get a reply from one of the members who lives on the same bay as I do. I am hoping at some point that I can actually show them some of the questions I have. Since I am weak on some of the terminology (I am working on this) its much easier to do this with visual aids. I really should have taken pictures of what I was having some questions about.

I think it is pretty clear from the picture I am not screaming across the water.

I really appreciate the breadth of knowledge on this board.

Keith

 

[DougPaul]

I think it is pretty clear from the picture I am not screaming across the water.

Well, it looks like light air from your port beam. If so, you probably need to loose the sheet a bit... (The sail is too far inboard.) Getting away from the trees might help too.

When you can formulate your question a bit better, post away. Never can tell--someone might know the answer or have a useful hint.

Doug

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Well, it looks like light air from your port beam. If so, you probably need to loose the sheet a bit... (The sail is too far inboard.) Getting away from the trees might help too.

When you can formulate your question a bit better, post away. Never can tell--someone might know the answer or have a useful hint.

Doug

You are exactly correct. At the time I had a little breeze from the port side. I was in the process of dragging the sheet when the picture was taken. What you might not be able to see is that I was vigorous enough in doing that. I was able to pop the mainsail halyard off of the hook thingy so the sail was no longer all the way to the top and of course no longer taut. One of my biggest questions was did I do something wrong or did that happen simply because I didn't have enough pressure on the down-haul line to keep it from popping off?

Fighting with the mainsail rope I was able to tear my hands up pretty good so I didn't stay out there very long. The next attempt I expect to be much better armed with more knowledge though and the little tidbits of experience I gained last time.

Thanks again Doug,
Keith

 

[seguin118]

Cats are fun to sail in a breeze and very frustrating in little/no breeze-which is what it looks like from the picture.Cats are light so they accelerate quickly,decelerate quickly and sometimes it's hard to get across the light patches.
The top of your mast looks like it could be farther back-there should be a way to adjust the headstay to lengthen it.This will help you point closer to the wind.Tie some brightly colored yarn on the headstay and both shrouds about 4'-5' up to give you a better idea of where the wind is coming from.Don't try to point up too high,the boat will stall out.
Try and get out in the open where the breeze is steadier.Wind shadow is 7 times the heighth of the object it's blowing over at 10 knots,farther in more of a breeze.
When (and if ) you get moving watch the lee bow-move up and aft or you'll fiind out about what one of my friends refers to as the hobie fling
Hope this helps
Skip

 

[DougPaul]

You are exactly correct. At the time I had a little breeze from the port side. I was in the process of dragging the sheet when the picture was taken. What you might not be able to see is that I was vigorous enough in doing that. I was able to pop the mainsail halyard off of the hook thingy so the sail was no longer all the way to the top and of course no longer taut. One of my biggest questions was did I do something wrong or did that happen simply because I didn't have enough pressure on the down-haul line to keep it from popping off?

I don't know the details of that particular rig, but the halyard should not come loose when maneuvering and/or trimming the sails. (Now that you mention it, there doesn't appear to be much vertical tension in the luff of the sail...) Increasing the tension in the down-haul might be worth a try. (Increasing the tension in the luff of the sail also flattens the sail which is generally desirable for heavy or very light air.)

I am guessing for the cause of the problem in the following, but maybe some of it will be helpful...

Fighting with the mainsail rope I was able to tear my hands up pretty good so I didn't stay out there very long. The next attempt I expect to be much better armed with more knowledge though and the little tidbits of experience I gained last time.

Gloves can be handy... (Cycling gloves will do.)

Also try to reduce the pressure on the rig when tightening the halyard. Ideally point upwind, or at least let the sheet go slack. Perhaps releasing the downhaul or outhaul while resetting the halyard might also help--in many (most?) rigs one raises the sail with the halyard, ties it off, and then sets the luff tension with the downhaul. (Sequence for raising the main: 1) raise using the halyard, 2) set downhaul, 3) set outhaul.)

Sail part names (and some of the line names): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parts_of_a_sail

There is a website for the Dart 18 (http://www.dart18.com/) which includes a section on hoisting the mainsail.

I've done much of my sailing on boats with winches...

Doug

 

[sardog1]

When you get tired of being abused by that boat, shoot me a PM. I'll be happy to bear the abuse.

Signed,
Son of Guy Who Built 2.5 Sailboats (No, that's not a tiny metric class, it's a tally. The 0.5 was a plywood-hulled cat that never got conjoined . . .)

aka
Son of Guy Who Sailed An Open Canoe On Lake Superior

aka
Son Who To This Day Can't Stand the Thought of Not Having a Sailboat Currently

aka
Husband of Woman Whose Cousin Sailed to Norway and is Getting Ready to Do It Again . . .

 

[erugs]

I sail on the Schooner Summertime. Too big to answer smaller questions. I do know Port and Starboard. Ready about? I love sailing.

 

[WinterWarlock]

Where is here?? I used to race offshore for the Naval Academy's team, then for a couple years on a J44 up in Marblehead. It's been a couple years, but if we're in the same general area, maybe I could help a bit..

 

[SAR-EMT40]

ties it off,

Ties it off he said. Hmmmmm. Didn't do that, expecting that the weight of the sail pulling downward on the halyard would keep it from jumping off of the lock in addition to the down-haul pressure. OK, nowhere in the manual did I see that listed. At least I did have a stopper knot in the end of the line. The loss of tension in the luff is because the mainsail halyard has already jumped off of the hook. (I have got to look up what thats called).

And bicycle gloves. What are you screwing with me? Haven't you seen my avatar. I have Kevlar lined rescue gloves I use and have available at all times. I can grind glass shards into sand with these gloves. I can tear jagged pieces of steel apart. They have only one shortcoming. You have to WEAR them to actually protect your hands.

The bicycle gloves are a good idea, I've used them before for other tasks and like them.

The reference to the Dart 18 web page is one of 3 sources I used to put the boat together when I put it in the water and read the pertinent sections on raising the mainsail also.


Thanks again for the other pointers also Doug. I do appreciate it.

Keith

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Where is here?? I used to race offshore for the Naval Academy's team, then for a couple years on a J44 up in Marblehead. It's been a couple years, but if we're in the same general area, maybe I could help a bit..

Freedom, NH when I'm up there which unfortunately won't be for a while now.

Keith

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I sail on the Schooner Summertime. Too big to answer smaller questions. I do know Port and Starboard. Ready about? I love sailing.

That is a seriously cool sailboat. But even I know you stand behind the wheel when steering. If you don't, you can get port and starboard mixed up.

Whose boat?

Keith

 

[DougPaul]

Ties it off he said. Hmmmmm. Didn't do that, expecting that the weight of the sail pulling downward on the halyard would keep it from jumping off of the lock in addition to the down-haul pressure. OK, nowhere in the manual did I see that listed. At least I did have a stopper knot in the end of the line. The loss of tension in the luff is because the mainsail halyard has already jumped off of the hook.

Ok. If you didn't have the downhaul fastened, that could be the cause.

(I have got to look up what thats called).

A boo boo?
I'm not aware of any specific term. Many sailboats use a sheave (pulley wheel) at the masthead with the halyard threaded through the cage. No hooks to jump off...

And bicycle gloves. What are you screwing with me? Haven't you seen my avatar. I have Kevlar lined rescue gloves I use and have available at all times. I can grind glass shards into sand with these gloves. I can tear jagged pieces of steel apart. They have only one shortcoming. You have to WEAR them to actually protect your hands.

A minor detail.

The bicycle gloves are a good idea, I've used them before for other tasks and like them.

Any fingerless glove that holds up to water will work. Bike gloves are just a readily available version. One can get sailing gloves.

The reference to the Dart 18 web page is one of 3 sources I used to put the boat together when I put it in the water and read the pertinent sections on raising the mainsail also.

Guess they missed something...

Thanks again for the other pointers also Doug. I do appreciate it.

I can give on-water lessons too...

Doug

 

[sardog1]

I'm cheaper. And I know less than Warlock, so you won't be embarrassed as often if you pick me.

Signed,
Guy Who Lives A Few Boatlengths South of Freedom

 

[Paradox]

Most off the beach catamarans have a bendy mast. You want it bent when close hauled (sailing close to the wind) to flatten the sail, you do this by bring the main traveler to center, and then tightening the mainsheet often block to block. When sailing down wind and the main sheet is eased the mast straightens and draft (camber) is forced into the sail. Okay now if the main halyard is tensioned by a cleat it the base of the sail it forces too much prebend into the mast. Hence, you are correct, you need to have that Nicopress-swaged-ball on the halyard in the little fork thingy near the top of the mast or you will not get optimal sail camber (nor will the mast rotate properly).

I differ in thinking you have too much rake in the mast. You have no foresail up and thus you need to have the masttop moved forward by tensioning the forestay. Without the foresail, cats have bucket loads of weatherhelm particularly in heavier winds. Not familiar with the Dart, my baliwick was Hobie 16's and occasionally I would singlehand without the foresail. Raking the mast forward was needed to keep the tiller from ripping your shoulder out of the socket during an afternoon of racing. You need to experiment with mastrake in different winds to find the optimal rake to give slight weather helm when beating to weather.

There is tons of information on Hobie Cats out there. Much of it is transferable to other cats. The Hobie 14's do not (did not) have a jib.

I actively raced my 16 in ragattas in the 1980's, raced Lightnings, J-22's, J-24's and larger keel boats during the 80's and 90's.

 

[Paradox]

A bit about luff tension on a cat. The luff is the leading edge of a sail. Once you get the swaged ball in the forky thing, you need to tension the downhaul. How much will depend on the cut of the sail for the Dart, BUT in general the full batten cut of a cat and its powerful roach means there will be some pretty ugly looking wrinkles in the forward third of the mainsail. Take a look at some recent regatta photos and videos of Hobie Cats and the sails still look like $pit, 40 years after they were first designed. Monohull sailors can't believe they look so bad and always want to pull the wrinkles out: Don't! you'll just ruin the sail. In general the higher the windspeed the more downhaul tension you need. I farted around with a cunningham for a while and it was much more bother than worth.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I'm cheaper. And I know less than Warlock, so you won't be embarrassed as often if you pick me.

Signed,
Guy Who Lives A Few Boatlengths South of Freedom

This is really great. I have at least two people who live in or right near Freedom. What a great group of people. I will certainly be keeping you in mind also.

I think I actually have figured out some things based upon all the information I have gotten here.

The next time I get a chance to get up there I am hoping to try to implement a lot of the information that I got here.

Keith

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Most off the beach catamarans have a bendy mast. You want it bent when close hauled (sailing close to the wind) to flatten the sail, you do this by bring the main traveler to center, and then tightening the mainsheet often block to block. When sailing down wind and the main sheet is eased the mast straightens and draft (camber) is forced into the sail. Okay now if the main halyard is tensioned by a cleat it the base of the sail it forces too much prebend into the mast. Hence, you are correct, you need to have that Nicopress-swaged-ball on the halyard in the little fork thingy near the top of the mast or you will not get optimal sail camber (nor will the mast rotate properly).

I differ in thinking you have too much rake in the mast. You have no foresail up and thus you need to have the masttop moved forward by tensioning the forestay. Without the foresail, cats have bucket loads of weatherhelm particularly in heavier winds. Not familiar with the Dart, my baliwick was Hobie 16's and occasionally I would singlehand without the foresail. Raking the mast forward was needed to keep the tiller from ripping your shoulder out of the socket during an afternoon of racing. You need to experiment with mastrake in different winds to find the optimal rake to give slight weather helm when beating to weather.

There is tons of information on Hobie Cats out there. Much of it is transferable to other cats. The Hobie 14's do not (did not) have a jib.

I actively raced my 16 in ragattas in the 1980's, raced Lightnings, J-22's, J-24's and larger keel boats during the 80's and 90's.

You are of course correct that I decided to not run the jib sail because I figured I would have my hands full with just the mainsail and besides, it isn't a necessity.

You may be correct in the amount of rake I have in the mast. I actually believe I may not have that forward enough because I couldn't seem to crank it as far forward as I believe it is supposed to be based upon the connections shown in some of the documents I had.

I have a friend that has a Hobie 16 and he took me out to try and show me how to sail it since they are somewhat similar.

I actually am getting excited about getting on this again to see if I can do it properly the second time.

Thanks everyone.

Keith

 

[Paradox]

You are of course correct that I decided to not run the jib sail because I figured I would have my hands full with just the mainsail and besides, it isn't a necessity.

You may be correct in the amount of rake I have in the mast. I actually believe I may not have that forward enough because I couldn't seem to crank it as far forward as I believe it is supposed to be based upon the connections shown in some of the documents I had.

Keith

Your chainplates (the st.st. plates with the holes in them that connect to the shrouds) may need extensions for main alone. And just use the jib halyard as your forestay.