When does a memorial become trash in a backcountry setting?
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Greg YEAH!
New member
I was up on Whiteface and Passaconaway today. There was nothing on Whiteface. The memorial on Passaconaway says nothing about the WoundedWarriors charity, which I thought was part of the reason he was doing this in the first place. Flag and laminate were stapled to a tree at the summit. Though I don't agree with leaving the flags, it didn't look half as bad as the person who decided to paint some rocks with their name on it and the number 48 and leave those at the summit. I picked up the rocks and off they went. This isn't the first time I removed someones accomplishments from a summit. Remember the only person who really cares about your accomplishments in the Whites is you.
Also, will any of those flags ever be removed for fear of being called unpatriotic? A better way he could have done this was to post something on VFTT about his cause and then take pictures of flags with the pictures of the soldiers and posted it on his Facebook page. Much more LNT that way. And yes, I also agree that toilet paper left behind and defacing trail signs is also wrong.
Also, will any of those flags ever be removed for fear of being called unpatriotic? A better way he could have done this was to post something on VFTT about his cause and then take pictures of flags with the pictures of the soldiers and posted it on his Facebook page. Much more LNT that way. And yes, I also agree that toilet paper left behind and defacing trail signs is also wrong.
Raven
Well-known member
I saw the memorial on Tecumseh about 2 weeks ago.
I know better than to respond to threads like this but...IMO
It does not need to be an "either/or"
1. On a very basic level, this is one man's way of showing honor for the dead. He's coming from a place of respect, and what he's doing is admirable. His heart's in the right place. This is the major point I see.
2. I am near the extreme end when it comes to the environment, and yes, metal staples and plastic are absolutely not good things to add to the forests. But, these will most likely be removed before long and it is doubtful much trash will result from this. I think he honestly believes this is not a harmful thing from this perspective. This is the minor point I see.
Yes, his LNT understanding could clearly be better. We're all on the learning curve.
Yes, there are more people worthy of memorials than we have space for in the WMNF, and since we can't all do it, none probably should. I'll give him a pass for that FWIW.
Kudos to Dave Metsky for actually posting about LNT to the "48 for the Fallen" site. It's enough to make him think about it next time, and he strikes me as a guy that will want to do the right thing.
I know better than to respond to threads like this but...IMO
It does not need to be an "either/or"
1. On a very basic level, this is one man's way of showing honor for the dead. He's coming from a place of respect, and what he's doing is admirable. His heart's in the right place. This is the major point I see.
2. I am near the extreme end when it comes to the environment, and yes, metal staples and plastic are absolutely not good things to add to the forests. But, these will most likely be removed before long and it is doubtful much trash will result from this. I think he honestly believes this is not a harmful thing from this perspective. This is the minor point I see.
Yes, his LNT understanding could clearly be better. We're all on the learning curve.
Yes, there are more people worthy of memorials than we have space for in the WMNF, and since we can't all do it, none probably should. I'll give him a pass for that FWIW.
Kudos to Dave Metsky for actually posting about LNT to the "48 for the Fallen" site. It's enough to make him think about it next time, and he strikes me as a guy that will want to do the right thing.
NorthShore
Member
Why not organize a collection of the remaining memorials placed by Ray Cabral during Flags on the 48 and return them to him for use in some sort of more lasting memorial?
FWIW, I was on 4 of the summits last week that have already had flags placed on them and didn't see any sign of them.
Ed
FWIW, I was on 4 of the summits last week that have already had flags placed on them and didn't see any sign of them.
Ed
BIGEarl
Well-known member
It's fun to say I AGREE WITH Iagreewithjamie!
I think its litter. Much more appropriate ways to honor those who gave their lives.
Ditto, on both points.
Kevin Judy and Emma
Well-known member
For my part I have picked up trash from one end of the Whites to the other and have always practiced LNT. This isn't trash, yet. When it is, it will be removed, if not before. As for the argument that it has nothing to do w/ the Whites, then what does Flags on the 48 have to do with the Whites? How many who died on 911 were avid hikers of the Whites? A small percentage is my guess. In my mind these memorials are just like Flags on the 48. A TEMPORARY memorial, nothing more. If it is harshing your mellow to think about those who have died so that you have the freedom to wander these hills then remove what you find offensive and move on... Makes me wonder how many LNT people have camped in illegal spots in the back country...
God Bless America, the flag of the United States and all those who have served under it past, present and future... and if you think I am a conservative flag-waving war monger, then you don't know me very well...
KDT
God Bless America, the flag of the United States and all those who have served under it past, present and future... and if you think I am a conservative flag-waving war monger, then you don't know me very well...
KDT
erugs
New member
One major difference in my mind, Kevin, is that the Flags on the 48 is absolutely temporary. There are there for a short window of time, then removed. I'm co-leading an AMC hike for slower hikers for folks who want to see them, but personally believe the event was started over an awful and startling bit of history and that doesn't have a lot to do with folks who died being hikers.
Raven
Well-known member
It's easy to criticize in cyberspace. It's also totally ineffective.
He has a website where these opinions can be voiced.
If you really feel he is doing something wrong, I'd suggest you tell him so directly (as Dave did) and suggest to him a better way for how he could honor the dead. At least he would hear the concerns as opposed to them simply being bounced around in an echo chamber of LNT experts. What does that solve?
Alternatively, remove the memorials. You have as much right to take them down as he had to put them up. If you do, please dispose of the flags respectfully. Actions speak louder than words anyway.
There are more worthwhile problems to address in the WMNF. Incidentally, I found 4 water bottles, a sole of a shoe, 2 ketchup packets, a bandana, and untold pieces of small trash in the Pemi last week, likely more trash than will be left from this display. Someone had also opted to use the middle of the Cedar Brook Trail (the less used end) as a privy, middle of the trail. Needless to say, I was livid...and it makes piling on someone doing something noble like this seem out of line.
Enough said.
He has a website where these opinions can be voiced.
If you really feel he is doing something wrong, I'd suggest you tell him so directly (as Dave did) and suggest to him a better way for how he could honor the dead. At least he would hear the concerns as opposed to them simply being bounced around in an echo chamber of LNT experts. What does that solve?
Alternatively, remove the memorials. You have as much right to take them down as he had to put them up. If you do, please dispose of the flags respectfully. Actions speak louder than words anyway.
There are more worthwhile problems to address in the WMNF. Incidentally, I found 4 water bottles, a sole of a shoe, 2 ketchup packets, a bandana, and untold pieces of small trash in the Pemi last week, likely more trash than will be left from this display. Someone had also opted to use the middle of the Cedar Brook Trail (the less used end) as a privy, middle of the trail. Needless to say, I was livid...and it makes piling on someone doing something noble like this seem out of line.
Enough said.
erugs
New member
Raven - you should know that people like to hash things out on VFTT. I read Dave's post on Ray's page and think it was an important message for Ray to see. As for me, I'm not going to "like" his page just so I can tell him I don't like what he is doing. I believe people have far more right to take them away than he had to put them up. When I see litter, I will continue to pick it up. I admit though that used TP is beyond my ability and those who leave it far exceed any out of line limit. Should I somehow give up my life for a cause, I would personally hope not to have a memorial for my life in the mountains that anyone else can see.
And that's not enough said...
And that's not enough said...
John in NH
Member
Put me in the +1 column for those who want to state my support, respect, and admiration for those who served. All of those who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan volunteered. If they didn't, you might be drafted. I can understand where Kevin (Kevin, Judy and Emma) is coming from, and some of the negative outcry seems at the very least, a bit insensitive in tone. As Raven said, if you have issue with what Ray is doing, saying it to him directly would be more appropriate and effective.
As for removal, why not have hikers volunteer to remove and return them (and any staples, etc) as NorthShore suggested? Someone can suggest that to Ray on the facebook page and it could be coordinated from there. I'd gladly help remove/return the materials. The 4ks see enough traffic for this to be accomplished in a weekend.
Just to be clear, LNT (Leave No Trace) has absolutely no legal force, correct? It is just a code of ethics propagated by a private non-profit organization. It is followed by most hikers (including me) and mostly common sense. But to suggest that Ray is breaking the "rules" or laws is false in that LNT is a belief system, not legal code. The only laws I am aware that might come into play would be those against littering. That would be up to State of NH or the Feds to determine and prosecute if they deem attaching flags and cards litter.
Where is the outcry from the LNT crowd regarding the Spruce Ridge wind farm that will permanently destroy the mountains at 70+ sites? That thread seems to have only the crickets and original poster chirping.
As for removal, why not have hikers volunteer to remove and return them (and any staples, etc) as NorthShore suggested? Someone can suggest that to Ray on the facebook page and it could be coordinated from there. I'd gladly help remove/return the materials. The 4ks see enough traffic for this to be accomplished in a weekend.
Just to be clear, LNT (Leave No Trace) has absolutely no legal force, correct? It is just a code of ethics propagated by a private non-profit organization. It is followed by most hikers (including me) and mostly common sense. But to suggest that Ray is breaking the "rules" or laws is false in that LNT is a belief system, not legal code. The only laws I am aware that might come into play would be those against littering. That would be up to State of NH or the Feds to determine and prosecute if they deem attaching flags and cards litter.
Where is the outcry from the LNT crowd regarding the Spruce Ridge wind farm that will permanently destroy the mountains at 70+ sites? That thread seems to have only the crickets and original poster chirping.
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bobandgeri
Well-known member
FYI - you do NOT need to like his page in order to comment on it.
This is the sentiment that I feel too. No special pleading. I respect the sacrifice made by those who served, but I don't believe that gives anyone the right to memorialize their service however they want in the public space.
As for the legitimacy of LNT, it's part of the 'Backcountry rules'. Even if it's law, it's pretty much unenforceable. It's up to volunteers to pick-up what is left by others.
Kevin Rooney
New member
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I was drafted during the VietNam War. I "joined" the Air Force to meet the draft obligation. The military regarded me, and tens of thousands of other draftees who joined branches other than the Army as volunteers. Did we regard ourselves as volunteers?
Let's keep this thread focused on trash.
erugs
New member
I went on to Ray's site to state my feelings on this as was suggested. I feel that site is overwhelmingly emotionally stacked with family and friends of those who are honored. The problem many of us see with the litter potential doesn't come up for the most part. I think that is because we don't want to be negative on his page. There difference in discussing it here is that this is a forum of hikers with a mostly different perspective.
Ignoring the legal / enforceable status of Leave No Trace for a moment, there are laws against littering. That said, memorials are usually, at least temporarily, not viewed as litter. Perhaps many could request (on the 48 For The Fallen FB page) that the Flags-on-the-48 folks take these memorials down, including the staples and/or tie wraps?
Tim
Tim
Kevin Judy and Emma
Well-known member
I view this as unsightly trash and breaking all rules of LNT. Could it be removed immediately, please?
Oh, and don't stop there. There are seven more just like it...
KDT
Oh, and don't stop there. There are seven more just like it...
KDT
John in NH
Member
Kevin, thank you for your service! As it so happens, my father did the exact same thing as you. In response to the draft, my dad joined the Air Force during Vietnam and served 5 1/2 years. So please know my thank you is sincere.
I feel my previous comments are relevant given the direction the thread has headed.
I view this as unsightly trash and breaking all rules of LNT. Could it be removed immediately, please?
Oh, and don't stop there. There are seven more just like it...
KDT
If it's been there more than 50 years, it's historical.
bobandgeri
Well-known member
Good idea Tim. Too bad the person putting them up didn't have a plan to take them down rather than just leave them to deteriorate. They all look nice now but in a couple of months it will be a sad display.
People that have an issue with the execution of this should voice their opinion on the "48 for the Fallen" facebook page, contact the Forest Service who is responsible for enforcement, and the Wounded Warrior Project who the person is raising money for.
Greg YEAH!
New member
I view this as unsightly trash and breaking all rules of LNT. Could it be removed immediately, please?
Oh, and don't stop there. There are seven more just like it...
KDT
Unlike 48-For-The-Fallen the AMC has permission from the WMNF to create their litter.
