New thread on winter boots

A side question if I may; do you consider hiking in leather boots or non-plastic boots in the winter to be reckless? Now that I have relocated to NH, I have just increased my winter hiking from a few trips a season to every other weekend. I’m in the market for some winter boots but I get the distinct impression from reading this thread that my only option seems to be plastic, if I do not want to be considered reckless if I spend an unplanned night in the woods.



Although I have not had a problem as of yet, I also haven’t hiked above treeline for an extended period of time in my leather boots. I did go to EMS on Tuesday night and tried on several pairs of Northface winter boots. They didn’t have my size in the NF Chute, the Salomon Avo were too strange looking, the NF Baltoro were too narrow, and the Sorel Caribou had no support. The only reason way I was looking at EMS was because my sister gave me a $100.00 gift card for Christmas. If I cannot find a right fit at EMS in Gorham after my hike on Saturday, I might have to bite the bullet and buy elsewhere.

MadRiver said:

A side question if I may; do you consider hiking in leather boots or non-plastic boots in the winter to be reckless?

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I'd say it depends on your own body and the conditions you are going out in.

And NO, not if you bring toe and/or foot warmers, or you have another way to keep your feet, and for that matter the rest of your body, warm. You can have the best boots in the world, but if you hike naked at -40, your feet are still going to get cold!

Preparation is key. Following someone else's exact method is not.

Your only option is NOT plastic double boots. And few would (or should) call you reckless for using something else. But personally I would leave the single leather boots at home in all but the most mild conditions.

Sorel-type boots with rubber bottoms and removable liners have been used successfully for many years and many continue to swear by them. I did for a long time as well, without problems other than stability on steep terrain. They're too soft for my taste for serious hiking.

Many people use newer type hiking boots like the Columbia Bugabootoo, its progeny, and the imitators from The North Face, etc.. These are fine for winter hiking or not, depending on their construction and the terrain and temperatures. What they lack most is a removable liner, which disqualifies them for camping overnight, IMO. I wear one of the Bugabootoo progeny on easy dayhikes at low elevations. I would not take them into the Whites, or even onto Mount Major in winter, but many do.

True mountaineering boots have evolved rapidly in the last few years, and there are now many alternatives to plastic double boots. They often fit nicely, they're warm, but they frequently don't have removable liners.

And then there's the hoary old standard of leather double boots. They work, but they need to be maintained frequently to stay waterproof, they're usually very stiff, and they're hard to find.

At the end of the day, many of us do use plastic double boots, because they are do-it-all, waterproof, warm footwear that works in almost every winter mountain situation. I like the rigidity, because I think it helps me with propulsion, and I'm accustomed to wearing heavy boots, but some folks really hate them.

Winter boots or footwear in general is very personal and situational.

If I'm going a high altitude slog where my feet are using the same pressure points over and over again and I'm going so slow that I'm not generating that much heat, then the warmest double plastic will probably be best.

If I'm doing lower elevation ascents where speed is a concern, then I'll probably be generating enough heat and will benefit from a "colder", lighter, leather boot.

IMO, shouldn't matter too much if you're sleeping out or not - your double's booties or your leathers should be in your sleeping bag anyway (I put my leathers inside my sleeping bag's stuff sack). Last time I remember camping in my plastics I had to sleep with the booties on anyway to dry them out because I sweated into them during the day (and this was a very cold day in the ADKs). If I was worried that I'd have to spend the night out, then I'd rather be speedy during the day with my leathers and have my down booties and extra socks with me just in case.

This question comes up somewhat frequently and I have no need for plastic boots. They may, and I don't see it, be an improvement over leather but my insulated leathers have been with me for a while and have been camping in temperatures of -25 with no problems. Will they and my feet survive -40? I don't know. If I hit those temps I'll let you know but I suspect they would. They accept crampons which I have used many times and are the most comfortable boots I own and they are rugged with the best sole I have ever had on a boot for traction and anti clogging. I have walked miles on them as plain boots and while attached to snowshoes and lesser distances while attached to crampons. I would pay a considerable amount if I could find a pair of boots exactly like them but un-insulated so I could use them for all my other 3 season hiking. As it is I have a pair of Limmers for the rest of the time but still haven't broken them in fully. I still have a crappy pair of well broken in second hand boots I bought that I tend to use whenever I am hiking for more than a mile or two. When and if my One Sport Massifs are ever destroyed I may look at plastics. Still not sure I will buy them over leather though.

It might be considered reckless to hike in bad conditions and low temps with standard type of single layer leather boot or worse the fabric types of boots though as a side comment.

Again, this is just my $.02. YMMV, Your skull jelly may have an different opinion, etc.

Keith

just so I have this correct - I would be judged reckless - if i was hiking mt adams on a normal winter weekend - no storms, no precip - had a fall, spent the night out and had to get carried out the next day

that would make me reckless - for wearing these leather boots?

http://www.mountainmagic.com/equipment/footwear/mountaineering/scarpa-cumbre.htm

giggy said:

that would make me reckless - for wearing these leather boots?

http://www.mountainmagic.com/equipment/footwear/mountaineering/scarpa-cumbre.htm

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Wooooooo Daddy like.

I wish I could find a picture of my leather boots. I may have to take a picture. I believe most are refering to single wall leather boots or god forbid the fabric ones as not being the best boots to go out in, in very cold weather.

Keith

giggy's example of the Scarpa Cumbre is what I meant by the newer type of "true mountaineering boots" and are perfectly fine, IMO, so long as you can get them into your bag at night if necessary.

When I referred to "single leather" boots above, I was thinking of my Limmer Standards and others of that ilk.

My Sorel Conquests have a good deal of leather, but I do not consider them to be a leather hiking boot - they are waterproof and insulated to minus 40...have never been cold in them.

My three season boots - Montrail Torres are a leather/synthetic boot that I feel is totally innappropriate for winter conditions...the one time I wore them out like that they froze solid at the Log Cabin...they got wet, and it was about 15 degrees out...

giggy said:

just so I have this correct - I would be judged reckless - if i was hiking mt adams on a normal winter weekend - no storms, no precip - had a fall, spent the night out and had to get carried out the next day

that would make me reckless - for wearing these leather boots?

http://www.mountainmagic.com/equipment/footwear/mountaineering/scarpa-cumbre.htm

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Giggy,

You know the drill:
If you got into trouble, we would judge you to be reckless.

If you didn't get into trouble, we would hail you as a hero...

(Only semi- )

Actually, grey areas are hard to judge apriori. Is the standard "did your feet stay warm" or is it "would your feet have stayed warm if you were forced to stop and bivy. Or something in between.

And, of course, conditions change--are they reasonably warm (eg 10-20F) or are they cold (eg (< -10F).

Doug

sardog1 said:

giggy's example of the Scarpa Cumbre is what I meant by the newer type of "true mountaineering boots" and are perfectly fine, IMO, so long as you can get them into your bag at night if necessary.

When I referred to "single leather" boots above, I was thinking of my Limmer Standards and others of that ilk.

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IMO, one way of distinguishing is whether the boots are (well) insulated or not. Most single leather boots are not insulated or just have a bit of foam which loves to soak up water.

Removable insulating liners have their advantages, but, particularly for day trips, they are not fundamentally necessary.

Doug

FWIW - in my 4 or 5 years with koflach degres , I have never been able to dry liners out in less 24 hours - sleeping bag, in front of a stove, etc..

not sure if ayone ever had luck with that.

my days of minus 30 temps are over anyway - its just not fun to me.

A good Boot Dryer that moves air aroind will dry your boots out in a couple of hours. Last Winter when we hiked both days every weekend, we used one of these after the hikes to dry out several pairs of boots.

For about 20 years (when the only double boots were leather) I wore a pair of boots similar to these. I did everything in the Whites in all types of weather, multiple days. In fact, I did Lafayette in -20, 60mph winds, in this style boot. I was never in any more danger in them than in the plastic double boots I have now. I made sure I had two pairs of thick wool socks (they fit well into the boot, not tightly) and that I changed the socks daily.

I would probably be using them today if the uppers hadn't broken down from age, making snowshoe and crampon bindings uncomfortable. It wasn't reckless then, and isn't now.

As a note, I run hot, so I require less insulation to stay at a functioning temperature than some around me, although I bring plenty of insulation and use it when it's appropriate. I've been doing this for 35 years, so something must be going right. Let's judge ourselves, and understand that others may be different.

Not to add anything controversial, but i wear VBL V(vapor)B(barrier)L(liner) socks over a pair of thin "sock-liners" and under a mid-weight (insulating?) sock. It saves on the "wet from inside" problem quite nicely. I do fit my boots to accomodate this set-up and it has been working nicely for me for several years. YMMV.... VBL's are not for everyone...

Plastics are nice - kinda like the "idiot-proof" warm footwear solution. However, there are some truly incredible non-plastic (or partial plastic) offerings available (greater flexibility, warmth, lighter weight, etc) and your budget is the limit.

I would say, however, no matter how nifty the boots LOOK or whatever the salesperson promises, if they don't fit very well, you may begin to think of them as modern-day torture devices.

Fit is it.

fm

bobandgeri said:

A good Boot Dryer that moves air aroind will dry your boots out in a couple of hours. Last Winter when we hiked both days every weekend, we used one of these after the hikes to dry out several pairs of boots.

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True but I doubt it will be taken along by many backpackers and used in their tents!

bobandgeri said:

A good Boot Dryer that moves air aroind will dry your boots out in a couple of hours. Last Winter when we hiked both days every weekend, we used one of these after the hikes to dry out several pairs of boots.

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yea - but it would be tough to get one them going in the tent.....

but - thanks for the link. Looks like a cool device.

I've hiked in the wintertime in my Montrail Torres, but it is a dayhike with others. I have a pair of leather Scarpa Charmoz which is a leather mtn'ing boot, it seems to do a good job of not absorbing water, My feet have remained perfectly dry in the times I've used it. Not as warm as double plastics, but different boot for different conditions. The Charmoz are at about 2lbs lighter than plastics per pair.

You know what they say though, it's one letter between hero and zero....

Jay

Saying someone is reckless because they didn’t wear double plastics is crazy. Does that mean everybody was reckless before plastic boots were invented? If that is the case, everyone must upgrade their gear every time some new innovative piece of gear is introduced that will keep you warmer, or they will be considered reckless. Plus I don’t think it is a proven fact that your feet can’t get cold with plastic boots if the conditions are right.

rentals

If you want to try before you buy, the Dartmouth Outing Club rents gear (including mountaineering boots) at Occum Pond in Hanover, and I think someone else mentioned EMS rents them too.