Lost and now candidates for a reckless conduct fine from NH Fish & Game

EDIT: Published in The Barre Montpelier Times Argus and other sources:

Lost hikers may be charged

July 18, 2007

MOUNT JEFFERSON, N.H. -- Fish and Game officials are looking into recommending charges against a Pennsylvania man and his teen daughter after they got stranded overnight on Mount Jefferson with no lights, maps or compass.
[Rest of article removed - Please don't post copyrighted articles in their entirety]

EDIT 2: Sorry -- I spaced out on that. Mea culpa.

I saw these two hiking up the Caps Ridge Trail as I was coming down it just below the first outcrop of ledge. Given the length of daylight and that some groups that day had only gone as far as the caps before turning around, I didn't think anything of it. He asked me if I knew if "outcrop" was one word or two as he wanted to teach his 15 yr. old how to spell it. I thought to myself if I were hiking with my dad, I'd want to be enjoying the hike, not have a spelling lesson. I'm sorry to hear that they didn't make it back down before dark. I was hoping that the daughter would have a good experience.

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=17478

Always a tough call.

so much for the alpine start.

sounds like dad should have done his research into the hike rather than teaching spelling

giggy said:

so much for the alpine start.

sounds like dad should have done his research into the hike rather than teaching spelling

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hey, maybe their clocks were 12 hours off.. 3pm start..yeah... that'll work.

Jay

Jay H said:

hey, maybe their clocks were 12 hours off.. 3pm start..yeah... that'll work.

Jay

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With all due respect, Jay, it can, depending on how fast you hike. I often take afternoon hikes, and had I started at 3 pm, I would have been off that mountain before dark. Too often on this board we make snap judgements about others' abilities and what they should do and how they should do it and not allow for individual differences. I was recently reminded of that when I insisted that my ex take more water with him than his Camelback held as I thought he didn't have enough for our hike. His intake of water while hiking, however, is different than mine and he didn't need it.

Sure, I understand that people have different paces and stuff. I go on afterwork hikes around the Hudson Valley in NY all the time, which generally doesn't start til after 5pm. But I bring a headlamp and the usual navigational gear with me. Heck, on the weekends when I have the whole day, I typically will be on the trailheads by 8am, including the 2 hour drive on a peak that will take 5 hours tops, and I still carry a headlamp, maps, and a compass.

Jay

I think jay was was kidding around

going to go out on a limb here and say they probably don't fit into the catagory of up and down jefferson via a class 2 route in 4 hours.

but maybe I am rushing to judgment

Some people have to learn things the hard way.

This is also another good example of the false sense of security people get when hiking with a cell phone.

Shame on the father for endangering his daughter. A "hike" doesn't always mean making it to the summit. They could have easily gotten a nice view from well above treeline even if they started at 3 PM. But of course they decided to push on for the top... bad decisions on top of bad decisions can get you in trouble real fast.

giggy said:

going to go out on a limb here and say they probably don't fit into the catagory of up and down jefferson via a class 2 route in 4 hours.

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But how do you know that when you first come across someone on a trail? How do you know that they even plan to go to the summit? Many people didn't that day. I saw them and heard their decision to turn around as I was headed up. Is it our job to screen every hiker we come across and make sure they're as prepared as we think they should be? And who decides what level of preparedness that is?

They started at 3. They had over 5 hours of daylight on a 5 mile roundtrip trail that they could have turned around on at any point. Averaging 1 mph is not speedy. I'm not defending the dad's decisions, lack of knowledge or preparedness, just pointing out that too often we as a group make snap judgements based on our own perceptions and experience which are not uniform across this group, and do not consider and allow for individual differences before making those judgements.

Roxi said:

But how do you know that when you first come across someone on a trail? How do you know that they even plan to go to the summit? Many people didn't that day. I saw them and heard their decision to turn around as I was headed up. Is it our job to screen every hiker we come across and make sure they're as prepared as we think they should be? And who decides what level of preparedness that is?

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I don't know and I don't care - its not anyone's "job" to screen anyone. This is a discussion board that we can discuss situations. The father made a moronic call to not turn back at a reasonable time - Most resonable adults with common sense would not put themselves and more importantly - their children in that situation period.

giggy said:

I don't know and I don't care - its not anyone's "job" to screen anyone. This is a discussion board that we can discuss situations. The father made a moronic call to not turn back at a reasonable time - Most resonable adults with common sense would not put themselves and more importantly - their children in that situation period.

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Ok, we can all hike our own hike, and no it's not my job, but as a father (and busy-body! ), I do sometimes stop and talk to other hikers, and once in a while give advice, especially if I think people/families might be headed for trouble.

Roxi said:

Too often on this board we make snap judgements about others' abilities and what they should do and how they should do it and not allow for individual differences.

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Ya think?

I wonder what the fine will be for getting lost on an de-blazed "Wilderness Trail"? That should provide endless legalistic entertainment for all, while providing lots of fodder those who are so fond of judging. I can hardly wait!

giggy said:

I don't know and I don't care - its not anyone's "job" to screen anyone. This is a discussion board that we can discuss situations. The father made a moronic call to not turn back at a reasonable time - Most resonable adults with common sense would not put themselves and more importantly - their children in that situation period.

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I will consult Gary, whom I believe may be clairvoyant, and ask what he thinks about this case and then report back with the results.

-Dr. Wu

This discussion is already about as productive as these things often are, but I think it's quite interesting that four people directed criticism at the father, and none at the daughter. Why the distinction? Age? Gender? The belief that all responsibility lies with the leader?

nartreb said:

This discussion is already about as productive as these things often are, but I think it's quite interesting that four people directed criticism at the father, and none at the daughter. Why the distinction? Age? Gender? The belief that all responsibility lies with the leader?

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parent and adult maybe......

nartreb said:

This discussion is already about as productive as these things often are, but I think it's quite interesting that four people directed criticism at the father, and none at the daughter. Why the distinction? Age? Gender? The belief that all responsibility lies with the leader?

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You're right, those 15-year-olds can get pretty bossy. I can hear it now:

"Daddy, I want to get to the top of that mountain!"
"Ok, sweetie. Daddy's coming..."

"Daddy, can't you walk faster? I need to be back in time before the mall closes"
"Daddy's trying, pumpkin..."

"Daddy, I need this peak for my list, let's get moving!"
"Anything for my little princess...
...honey, Daddy's left arm just went numb, can you please call 911?"
"Ugh, [rolleyes] Fiiiine"

Tim Seaver said:

Roxi said:

Too often on this board we make snap judgements about others' abilities and what they should do and how they should do it and not allow for individual differences.

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Ya think?

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Definitely. This thread has every sign of becoming yet another rush to judgement, with much speculation and little fact.

I normally stay out of these discussions, especially given there were no unleashed dogs needing rescuing, so I’m a little confused how this is a rush to judgment? The father started late and didn’t even have the basis tools with which to insure a safe return and will more than likely get fined. So please explain the rushing part.

The law, enacted in 1999, is used mainly against unequipped hikers who have to be rescued after ignoring warnings or who head out without proper preparation. The law provides for fines.
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It sure doesn't sound like they ignored a warning. It doesn't sound like they went without proper preparation - no mention of exposure problems, dehydration, starvation, etc. The story states the hikers were 'fine'.
What kind of a search is needed if you're on the top of Jefferson. How many trail signs are in that area?
This sounds more dopey than reckless. But if they started out in bad weather - with everything else being equal - that would be reckless.