pudgy_groundhog
Active member
Does somebody have a link to information on S&R costs and statistics? I'd be interested to see a breakdown of the $.
Climbers stranded on hood as we speak
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JohnL
New member
DougPaul
Well-known member
The American Alpine Club published an analysis of SAR costs. http://www.americanalpineclub.org/pdfs/MRreal.pdf.pudgy_groundhog said:
Mountaineering SAR costs are a very small fraction of the total. In Oregon in 2003, climbing was 3.8%, just above mushroom picking at 3.3%.
Massive searches for lost hikers, kids, etc are far costlier.
In the US, most SAR personell are volunteer. The local officials are often already on the payroll and the military treats the SAR as training and does not bill anyone. Europe is quite different...
Doug
Bobby
Active member
The latest post from yahoo. It sounds as if the SAR is going into recovery mode. It ain't over 'til it's over.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061219/ap_on_re_us/missing_climbers
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061219/ap_on_re_us/missing_climbers
medic108
New member
Interesting report - dislocated shoulder. Rather unfortunate since, in the absence of fracture, its a rather easy maneuver to reduce the dislocation even for a non-physician. The pain of a dislocated shoulder is pretty intense - no wonder he was unable to continue. Just some thoughts....
As for SAR discussion. Many SAR members are volunteers, I work and know many members personally. There are definetly costs - there always are from supplies, to time, equipment, aircraft and sometimes lives. The piece that the media misses at times is that although this is a tragedy and we all feel for the families and for the climbers, it was a ascent and trek of choosing. These were experienced mountaineers that knew that the risk of the adventure was the ultimate sacrifice. It doesnt make the loss easier for the family, but it is certainly different than an unpredictable circumstance like a tornado ripping through a neighborhood.
As for SAR discussion. Many SAR members are volunteers, I work and know many members personally. There are definetly costs - there always are from supplies, to time, equipment, aircraft and sometimes lives. The piece that the media misses at times is that although this is a tragedy and we all feel for the families and for the climbers, it was a ascent and trek of choosing. These were experienced mountaineers that knew that the risk of the adventure was the ultimate sacrifice. It doesnt make the loss easier for the family, but it is certainly different than an unpredictable circumstance like a tornado ripping through a neighborhood.
una_dogger
Well-known member
I don't know if anyone is interested but maybe we can have a candlelight VFTT vigil to send vibes for this rescue. I am amazed at the determination that is being shown. I feel like I want to do something. Imagine all of us lighting a candle at the same time and really focusing our energy on the mountain?
Grumpy
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I don't want to drag this discussion OT, but the following caught my attention:
As one who suffered serial shoulder dislocations over a 20-year period I can attest that part of this is true, and part of it is not.
First, I don't recall experiencing intense pain with dislocations. Some pain, yes. But I would not call it intense. What I did experience was an intense sense of helplessness and fragility when the episodes occurred.
Second, I'll agree that reduction is not necessarily difficult. In my case, it often happened as spontaneously as did the dislocation.
BUT, the last dislocation I experienced occurred (26 years ago) when I rolled over in bed at about 5 o'clock one morning. It was a severe, full dislocation and the doctor -- who actually made a house call! -- was unable to reduce it, even after having dosed me with some powerful painkillers and muscle relaxants. What followed in short order was a trip to the hospital, general anethesia and a session in the operating room with an orthopaedic surgeon and team of goons who cranked the thing back into place while I was out cold. Eight weeks later the shoulder was surgically repaired, and hasn't caused trouble since.
My conclusion is that we ought be careful making general statements about injuries of this sort and their effects.
G.
medic108 said:
As one who suffered serial shoulder dislocations over a 20-year period I can attest that part of this is true, and part of it is not.
First, I don't recall experiencing intense pain with dislocations. Some pain, yes. But I would not call it intense. What I did experience was an intense sense of helplessness and fragility when the episodes occurred.
Second, I'll agree that reduction is not necessarily difficult. In my case, it often happened as spontaneously as did the dislocation.
BUT, the last dislocation I experienced occurred (26 years ago) when I rolled over in bed at about 5 o'clock one morning. It was a severe, full dislocation and the doctor -- who actually made a house call! -- was unable to reduce it, even after having dosed me with some powerful painkillers and muscle relaxants. What followed in short order was a trip to the hospital, general anethesia and a session in the operating room with an orthopaedic surgeon and team of goons who cranked the thing back into place while I was out cold. Eight weeks later the shoulder was surgically repaired, and hasn't caused trouble since.
My conclusion is that we ought be careful making general statements about injuries of this sort and their effects.
G.
Rick
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As far as pain goes, we all vary with pain thresholds. My wife, who has also given birth and can do some comparitive analysis with that pain, has dislocated her shoulder several times and her pain is extremely intense. panicky, sweating, vomiting type pain that causes all her muscles to become rigid/cramped.
My thoughts and prayers are with these guys. This tragedy evokes of memories from May 1996 on Everest when Outside Online was covering it minute by minute....
My thoughts and prayers are with these guys. This tragedy evokes of memories from May 1996 on Everest when Outside Online was covering it minute by minute....
pudgy_groundhog
Active member
Thanks JohnL and DougPaul.
DougPaul
Well-known member
Some more info on the costs of this effort: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1166585109174210.xml&coll=7pudgy_groundhog said:
(There is more info on funds in the article.)Oregonlive.com said:
Also info on the current status (search scaled back, bad weather coming in.)
Doug
SherpaKroto
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When good things go bad...
Without stirring the pot too much, this is a vivid example of how serious things quickly become in winter conditions. Very sobering to think of the amount of suffering that these climbers endure(d) pursuing what they love to do. My prayers are with them and their families.
Without stirring the pot too much, this is a vivid example of how serious things quickly become in winter conditions. Very sobering to think of the amount of suffering that these climbers endure(d) pursuing what they love to do. My prayers are with them and their families.
medic108
New member
Grumpy - appreciate the sentiment. In defense, briefly, it wasnt meant to be a generalization of sorts. I have personally assessed and been involved clinically with probalby 75 or more dislocations of the shoulder. And your framing of the situation is very accurate - some are easy, some are not, some are painful and some are not. Many factors.
The real issue is that a guy with a dislocation was not able to continue for whatever reason. The point I was trying to make, and did so poorly, is that for want of a frequently easy reduction, our fellow climber died alone, in a snow cave.
The real issue is that a guy with a dislocation was not able to continue for whatever reason. The point I was trying to make, and did so poorly, is that for want of a frequently easy reduction, our fellow climber died alone, in a snow cave.
JohnL
New member
Sheriff Calls Off Search for Mount Hood Climbers
Sheriff Wampler said the men's families made the decision to end the search.
The operation is now a ''recovery effort.''
JohnL
Sheriff Wampler said the men's families made the decision to end the search.
The operation is now a ''recovery effort.''
JohnL
forestgnome
New member
Prayers and condolences to the families and freinds. Life is prescious.
Tom Rankin
Well-known member
I just saw this on Yahoo! Maybe there is still hope...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061221/ap_on_fe_st/japan_hibernating_man
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061221/ap_on_fe_st/japan_hibernating_man
Jay H
New member
I was going to post that Tom... 71 degree body temperature!
from Wikipedia:
Jay
from Wikipedia:
Jay
DougPaul
Well-known member
Tom Rankin said:
The climbers on Mt Hood are in a much colder environment than this man was. I'm not going to say impossible, but IMO very unlikely. If I were you, I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Doug
Tom Rankin
Well-known member
This man in Japan is obviously very lucky. I posted this because it seemed to be related.DougPaul said:
DougPaul
Well-known member
That he was. The article didn't say anything about long term effects--would have been interesting.Tom Rankin said:
IIRC, some of the long time under water survivals result in brain damage. Not quite the same event, but there might be some similarity.
Doug
DougPaul
Well-known member
The search has been suspended.
A good summary of the search: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1166675108228260.xml&coll=7
Timeline:
http://www.oregonlive.com/newslogs/...e_oregonian_news/archives/2006_12.html#217233
Scroll down a bit or search on "Timeline".
Pics:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/photos/
Summitpost.org, pics and summary:
http://www.summitpost.org/album/252008/mt-hood-rescue-overview.html
Doug
A good summary of the search: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1166675108228260.xml&coll=7
Timeline:
http://www.oregonlive.com/newslogs/...e_oregonian_news/archives/2006_12.html#217233
Scroll down a bit or search on "Timeline".
Pics:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/photos/
Summitpost.org, pics and summary:
http://www.summitpost.org/album/252008/mt-hood-rescue-overview.html
Doug
