ditching the koflachs?

[Tim Seaver]

Salomon SnowBows

With the Koflach Degre's weighing in at 5lb 7oz per pair and the Salomon B52's at 2lb 8oz per pair, it's a no brainer for me. At least for 95+% of the winter hiking I do in the White Mountains. I wore them Sunday on Garfield when it was Zero degrees and I did not feel any hint of my feet being cold. They are incredibly comfortable, snowshoe and crampon campatible, very warm and lightweight. No more plastics for me.

JohnL

I am in the same camp, although I prefer the predecessor to the B-52, the "Snowbow". The one thing I don't like with the B-52 is the lacing system, which uses an oversize cordlock-type thingie - it forces you to lace the boots to the very top, which I don't like to do, as it cuts down significantly on ankle flexibility - the Snowbow has more traditional lacing with two pairs of hooks above the ankle.

Fearing the demise of the Snowbow ( I am pretty sure it is discontinued), I bought 5 pairs on sale from Cabela's,which I hope will get me through a few winters until something better comes along, although I feel these are just about perfect for anything short of a multi-day arctic trip in the Whites.

I am suprised that this segment of the boot market has so little competition - (the North Face Baltoro feels stiffer and clunkier, more like a pac boot), and other than that there really isn't much on the horizon that I am aware of that has the same combination of warmth, comfort, and flexibility. Add some ice racing screws, and a pair of steel Kahtoolas, and you are good to go!

 

[drewski]

#'s

and number them..1-5

 

[Lawn Sale]

Please tell me the Degree's are size 11?

I use a Danner boot, 800gm Thinsulate when it's really cold outside, and my feet have never been cold in them. While they are on the big side, they work well and the leather is conditioned to the point it's waterproof yet very flexible. I know it's usually a no-no, but they were $5 at a lawn sale a few years ago and fit like a glove. New inserts and they've been awesome.

 

[skiguy]

I hear what y'all are saying, but I must say, I can't really relate. I wonder if your Degre's are fitted right?

Mine fit great and are often as or more comfortable as/than my leathers. Sure you have to change the way you walk...but they cushion your feet in a way that leathers never do. On top of that, how great it is to have nice toasty feet...As importantly it is great to not have to worry about frostbite even if I get stuck in the backcountry, or have to worry about waking up with boots frozen solid.

It may certainly be that your foot is too narrow or too wide to fit in well...

I would agree and echo Bluethroatedone comments here. There are alot of nice insulated leather boots out there, but plastic boots have their place.
Double boot/plastic technology IMO performs the best in Multi Day situations.
A supple/lighter pair of leathers is ceratainly fine especially with a supergaitor for a day or two but I certainly appreciate the user dynamicness that a plastic boot offers for multi-day efforts. Being able to sleep with the liners and also dry them out is critical when you are out there for awhile.
If you hike and climb all different times of the year and in varying conditions I don't think that you can help from quivering at least a few different pairs of boots.No pun intended but "One shoe does not fit all"! Which brings me to a critical point about Plastics. We all now have access to alot of different plastics out there. Try lots of them on and find the one that works best for the shape of your foot. Fit is key with plastics or any other high performance footware.

 

[Jasonst]

like many on here, i have koflach degres, but i guess i'm not as enamored with them as most seem to be. they work well, and they're pretty comfortable for what they are- but that's just it- they are monstrous, completely inflexible plastic blocks on my feet. i'd like something that felt even vaguely like a shoe/boot, rather than a block. lately, even when the temps are down around zero, like yesterday, i passed on them for my 15 year old vasque sundowners, without any discomfort whatsoever (i am fully aware that things would be different had i been camping/hurt/forced to remain still for too long, etc.). i'm thinking about ditching these things for something like the vasque super alpinista or the la sportiva nepal evo or something of the like- something that more resembles a regular hiking boot. anybody have any experience with either of these boots or something comparable? i imagine that there will be plenty of koflach defenders, but to be clear, i'm not dissing them. i'm just looking for a little more compromise.

After a couple of hikes this year in my Koflach's, I am beginning to join this camp... Weigh in at 5 lbs (with non stock liners), add snowshoe weight to that, and you are weighing in at 5lbs per foot. It is definitely noticeable and I am going to shelf mine for a while.

O yeah... After 10 miles, they also hurt my feet.

 

[dug]

Even in multi-day situations, with proper care and gear, I still don't think they are necessary. VBL's keep the inside dry, so they don't freeze at night. Wearing booties around the camp to keep the toes toasty. I've never had a problem.

 

[Lawn Sale]

I also VBL it when doing overnights camping where I can't dry my boots near a fire. I don't on day hikes as I don't care for the feeling of the VBL, my foot moves more inside the boot. While it hasn't been a problem, it's just not as much of a positive feel.

 

[MissionsMan]

Gotta say - nothing like my Nepal Extreme's

I have plastic boots as well, though not Koflachs (mine are Scarpa Inverno's) with Intuition liners (non-stock) and they are very, very comfy and warm. However, unless i'm specifically on a hard-ice route, my preferred boot is by far my LaSportiva Nepal Extremes. Here's why.

I use a VBL in my leathers and also, in the cold, Brooks Range overboots. This combo is as warm as the Inverno's, more flexible, less clunky and certainly feel lighter - though not sure if the wgt is actually lighter or not - i don't have an accurate scale.

I have had more than a few 15 or so mile days in the Inverno's, so i know how that feels and usually my feet are tired and my knees sore. Not so with the LaSports at all. I love 'em!!!! Not sure how much better the LaSport Nepal EVO is, but the older version like i have is superb to say the least.

YMMV,

fm

 

[spider solo]

I have also been shying away from wearing the plastics.... Usually in the fall I go from summer boots to a heavier leather boots in the fall (Limmers)..then to the plastics and finally till I could wear the plastics with snowshoes all day no problem.

Last year around this time I started wearing La Sportiva Trango's a fairly light weight 3 season boot which allows you to be able to do some kick steps if needed. I've been "cheating "the season using those chemical foot warmers that are the length of your feet, and that works out ok, but they are only good for about 5 hrs (I think).

Crampons... I noticed without a doubt.. that strap-on crampons on these make my feet cold. I know that plastics were a big break through because in the old days of Mallory and leather boots ,crampons were a last resort because the would freeze their feet all the quicker.

So for those seeking a more flexible type boot...crampons with straps could work against you ...so some kind of step-in crampon might be the way to go....and have warmer feet.

 

[Lawn Sale]

I've never heard of this being an issue before, nor have I experienced it myself. It sounds like you're tightening the crampons too much. The strap-on crampon shouldn't be so tight it distorts the boot, it should just be tight to the outside of the boot. It sounds like something is misadjusted.

 

[spider solo]

I have three or four pair of crampons of different styles... it's just something I happened to notice with the more flexible boots. The topic shows up when reading of some of the stuff on the early days when crampons were invented etc.
There was actually an old school of thought that resisted using them..decrying them as cheating and what not. Of course I would imagine that would be of little consolation as one fell to their death the "old way."

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I've never heard of this being an issue before, nor have I experienced it myself. It sounds like you're tightening the crampons too much. The strap-on crampon shouldn't be so tight it distorts the boot, it should just be tight to the outside of the boot. It sounds like something is misadjusted.

I don't think it has anything do to with the degree of tightening. Rather, the steel crampon is a very effective transmitter of cold to your foot. So, you feet will tend to get colder much quicker (regardless of whether you're wearing leathers or plastics) if you're wearing crampons. Same thing happens with a climbing ice axe, so if you get some type of insulation on the ice axe between you and the steel, without impairing the use of the axe, then your hand is going to stay alot warmer.

But, as they say, YMMV.

 

[HighHorse]

I have also been shying away from wearing the plastics.... Usually in the fall I go from summer boots to a heavier leather boots in the fall (Limmers)..then to the plastics and finally till I could wear the plastics with snowshoes all day no problem.

Last year around this time I started wearing La Sportiva Trango's a fairly light weight 3 season boot which allows you to be able to do some kick steps if needed. I've been "cheating "the season using those chemical foot warmers that are the length of your feet, and that works out ok, but they are only good for about 5 hrs (I think).

Crampons... I noticed without a doubt.. that strap-on crampons on these make my feet cold. I know that plastics were a big break through because in the old days of Mallory and leather boots ,crampons were a last resort because the would freeze their feet all the quicker.

So for those seeking a more flexible type boot...crampons with straps could work against you ...so some kind of step-in crampon might be the way to go....and have warmer feet.

i've certainly heard of the phenomenon before- you'll see it in the writings of bonatti et al, but i have one question: why would a step-in crampon reduce the effect of a chilling of the feet over a strap-on crampon? it would seem the two would have a similar effect, although i've only used step-ins so i have no control group.

also, one more question... how do you like the trangos? i've been eyeing them for a while now. they seem like they would be suitable for general hiking, but i've never really heard much about this. if they worked for this purpose, they would make an excellent spring/late fall boot so that i could still use my step-in crampons. thanks.

by the way, the degres i have are a size 9.5. and i'm 99% sure i'm gonna get the LS Nepal EVOs, if i can find a place that has my size.

 

[skiguy]

I don't think it has anything do to with the degree of tightening. Rather, the steel crampon is a very effective transmitter of cold to your foot. So, you feet will tend to get colder much quicker (regardless of whether you're wearing leathers or plastics) if you're wearing crampons. Same thing happens with a climbing ice axe, so if you get some type of insulation on the ice axe between you and the steel, without impairing the use of the axe, then your hand is going to stay alot warmer.

But, as they say, YMMV.

Wearing a crampon wether it is strapon or stepin will accelerate the conductive heat loss through the bottom of your boot. This is the main reason you see climbers in High and Cold climates wearing overboots. Yes the upper part of the overboot has some insulation but a good overboot has an insulated sole (usually closed cell foam). This essentially puts another layer between your foot and the crampon. As Kevin mentioned the same thing happens with an iceaxe especially if you spend alot of time walking around with your hand on the head of the axe in a cane like manner. Wrapping the head of the axe with foam and duct tape leaving the adze and pick exposed will add another insulative layer.

 

[DougPaul]

I've never heard of this being an issue before, nor have I experienced it myself. It sounds like you're tightening the crampons too much. The strap-on crampon shouldn't be so tight it distorts the boot, it should just be tight to the outside of the boot. It sounds like something is misadjusted.

I don't think it has anything do to with the degree of tightening. Rather, the steel crampon is a very effective transmitter of cold to your foot. So, you feet will tend to get colder much quicker (regardless of whether you're wearing leathers or plastics) if you're wearing crampons. Same thing happens with a climbing ice axe, so if you get some type of insulation on the ice axe between you and the steel, without impairing the use of the axe, then your hand is going to stay alot warmer.

The issue with tight crampon (or snowshoe) straps on a soft boot is cutting off the circulation in your feet. (Your hands and feet are heated by warm blood flow.)

There is certainly some addtional heat loss through the sole of one's boot when wearing crampons, but I'm not conviced that it is a terribly big problem. (Specifically, the issue is "how much does the crampon lower the temp of the surface of the sole?". The heat loss is proportional to the temp difference across the insulation (in this case, flesh to outside of the sole).

Supergaiters will reduce the heat loss from the upper, but not the sole. Overboots will reduce the heat loss from the entire boot, but since they offer little traction generally require the use of crampons or snowshoes.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

I have three or four pair of crampons of different styles... it's just something I happened to notice with the more flexible boots. The topic shows up when reading of some of the stuff on the early days when crampons were invented etc.
There was actually an old school of thought that resisted using them..decrying them as cheating and what not. Of course I would imagine that would be of little consolation as one fell to their death the "old way."

The "old school" was most likely using nailed boots which gave reasonable traction in icy terrain. Ice climbing in those days meant step cutting and nailed boots were fine for standing in steps.

There has been a long history of the "old school" decrying the use of new technology making things "too easy"--crampons, pitons, aid climbing, GPS, etc.

BTW, Chouinard has a nice history of crampons in "Climbing Ice". They were used in medieval times by shepards, 10 pt crampons were developed in 1908 by Eckenstein, and front points were added in 1932 by Grivel.

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Doug -

I would certainly agree that overtightening a boot or crampon will decrease bloodflow and cause colder feet, and in my experience this can happen rather quickly.

As for the impact of cold steel on one's feet - I've noticed this several times when climbing Washington in cold conditions. I've been able to climb this peak safely without crampons many times, but needed them on the way down. Under really cold conditions (subzero), I've noticed a big difference in foot comfort. I'm one of those people whose feet are warmer on the descent, so finding them colder is all the more noticable. But, whether I was wearing step-ins or strap-ons - I don't that - in and of itself - makes any difference.

Kevin

 

[Aviarome]

It seems that most people are opting against double plastics. I know many of the people here have also climbed Rainier, and I was wondering what the consensus for boots on Rainier is. It seems that most of the guide services require double plastics, but it seems that LS Nepal EVOS, the Vasque boots, and others will still do the trick, especially on the Ingraham Direct/Disappointment Cleaver routes. Would people still recommend double boots on Rainier?

aviarome

 

[giggy]

It seems that most people are opting against double plastics. I know many of the people here have also climbed Rainier, and I was wondering what the consensus for boots on Rainier is. It seems that most of the guide services require double plastics, but it seems that LS Nepal EVOS, the Vasque boots, and others will still do the trick, especially on the Ingraham Direct/Disappointment Cleaver routes. Would people still recommend double boots on Rainier?

aviarome

think it depends when your going - if your going in the summer, it is safe to assume it will not get as cold as is here in the winter. I used my plastics last year but I think it could have been done with a good sturdy leather for sure (assuming it takes pons, etc..) I saw people with leathers on the route - thats for sure. If you going in spring or winter (most likely your not!) then I wouldn't use leathers. the ones you mention above should be fine - they are climbing boots anyway right? just keep in mind - they will get wet slogging on the muir snowfeild heading up and they can freeze overnight and be cold in the am - but you will warm up fast once you start climbing the ingraham glaicer and cathedral gap!

 

[jfb]

It seems that most people are opting against double plastics. I know many of the people here have also climbed Rainier, and I was wondering what the consensus for boots on Rainier is. It seems that most of the guide services require double plastics, but it seems that LS Nepal EVOS, the Vasque boots, and others will still do the trick, especially on the Ingraham Direct/Disappointment Cleaver routes. Would people still recommend double boots on Rainier?

aviarome

I've done the DC route (on Memorial Day, 1983) in heavy duty single leather boots, but had to stop at the top of the cleaver, take off my boots and warm my toes in my hands for a few minutes. With those boots, my toes would get cold if I spent too much time frontpointing. On the other hand, on a trip to Peru in July, 1978 (to 17,300 ft.) those boots were fine. In general though, I think double boots would be a wise choice, leather or plastic.