Periwinkle
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Also on August 24, but in 1938, Joseph Caggiano died of "exhaustion and exposure" a half mile from the hut on the Gulfside Trail.
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Pete_Hickey
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In my case, I'm always much more cautions when I winter hike alone. Much less likely to take chances. Also, I'm never stoned when I winter hike alone.
timmus
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Pete_Hickey said:
Really... I bet that's when you wear contact lenses instead of glasses.
Pete_Hickey
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You're getting too smart for hiking with me.timmus said:
forestgnome
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Darren makes a great point: hikers may be more cautious while alone, but it's the increased time an injured solo hiker will probably have to wait for help that could be a killer. Yardsale's point about where you are hiking is also important. There's a big difference between the Tuckerman Ravine Tr at noon on a Saturday and bushwacking.
Royswkr's point about group dynamics is very interesting, never thought about it. IIRC, about two years a go an inexperienced person froze to death on the North Presidential Ridge after the experienced partner urged him on despite apprehension. If he was solo he probably would have turned back.
Royswkr's point about group dynamics is very interesting, never thought about it. IIRC, about two years a go an inexperienced person froze to death on the North Presidential Ridge after the experienced partner urged him on despite apprehension. If he was solo he probably would have turned back.
Maddy
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Excellent discussion.
I have related this experience several times before so I will not tell it again in detail.
Suffice it to say that when I awoke in minus 40 temps on an expedition in Ely MN I was very happy to know that two "wilderness first responders" were no more than say 10-20 feet away and would render assistance. I would have died had I been alone as I was incapable of helping myself. Believe me I tried. This happened so fast and it happened because I did something very foolish. Never did I think for one moment that freezing to death might be the consequence of this action. Had I been alone, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have died.
I was not above treeline but I can certainly relate it to above treeline conditions.
The past year has been a very long one as I recovered for two injuries that I sustained locally. I never imagined that I was at great risk in a parking lot but I managed to do myself in. I then finished the job in the perennial garden. Can't even blame ice. What a rude awakening!
I will never go above treeline alone again in winter. I will hike only on trails that I am very familiar with, in areas where there will be other hikers, skiers,and as always.... I will carry all my emergency gear.
I was always very cautious but I had convinced myself that if I was careful, nothing that bad could possibly happen. I know better now. There is nothing like a year of sitting around, having to quit your job, dealing with pain and immobility, to sober you up. Over the years I have had other experiences that gave me pause for thought but never anything quite like this.
Accidents happen, but I do have some control over how much I want to risk and now that I know first hand how great it feels to almost freeze to death, I want no part of it!
I have related this experience several times before so I will not tell it again in detail.
Suffice it to say that when I awoke in minus 40 temps on an expedition in Ely MN I was very happy to know that two "wilderness first responders" were no more than say 10-20 feet away and would render assistance. I would have died had I been alone as I was incapable of helping myself. Believe me I tried. This happened so fast and it happened because I did something very foolish. Never did I think for one moment that freezing to death might be the consequence of this action. Had I been alone, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have died.
I was not above treeline but I can certainly relate it to above treeline conditions.
The past year has been a very long one as I recovered for two injuries that I sustained locally. I never imagined that I was at great risk in a parking lot but I managed to do myself in. I then finished the job in the perennial garden. Can't even blame ice. What a rude awakening!
I will never go above treeline alone again in winter. I will hike only on trails that I am very familiar with, in areas where there will be other hikers, skiers,and as always.... I will carry all my emergency gear.
I was always very cautious but I had convinced myself that if I was careful, nothing that bad could possibly happen. I know better now. There is nothing like a year of sitting around, having to quit your job, dealing with pain and immobility, to sober you up. Over the years I have had other experiences that gave me pause for thought but never anything quite like this.
Accidents happen, but I do have some control over how much I want to risk and now that I know first hand how great it feels to almost freeze to death, I want no part of it!
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Waumbek
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Guy and Laura Watermans’ Forest and Crag provides some historical context to think about this general issue, if not specifically the question of hiking solo above treeline in winter. Before the “winter recreation boom” that began in 1970-75, they say, winter climbers learned their stuff in various mountaineering schools that stressed dangers and safety precautions. This Army-surplus wool-clad “macho” group began to be replaced in the mid-70s by hikers attired in “a jaunty, bright stylishness and an equally jaunty frame of mind.” The jaunty group, they say, was far less preoccupied with safety.
Much of their chapter on the winter boom explains why the preoccupation with danger & safety dropped–with the increase in backcountry skiing, trails were more likely to be broken out in winter; gear improved; state and volunteer rescue services expanded (BSP used to require winter climbers to have their own backup crew of rescuers ready to go in and get them), and so forth. Today the Watermans might include the invention of the cell phone, GPS, etc. The chapter then segues into an exposition of how certain mountaineering and hiking accidents capriciously catch the public’s attention and gets off the subject of this thread.
What the chapter brings to mind, though, is that the old-school conservative advice to have a minimum team of four for winter recreation (two to go for help, one to stay with the injured) doesn’t mean just any four people chosen randomly, it means four people with winter experience whom you know and trust. Today, the conservative advice would more likely be the “buddy system” of hiking with one other person you know and trust. Undoubtedly, if you hike in winter with people you don’t know, you could well increase your risk because of something foolhardy they do. You could also end up hiking with people whose risk level, or even whose idea of plain old common sense, is quite different from yours. But the blanket implication that hiking with others increases risk is misleading. Good hiking buddies are careful about one another and stay alert to the false bravado issue.
I have always assumed that one of the several reasons Darren set up VFTT and made the recent changes he has is to help people identify others they trust and might want to hike with, especially in winter. Reading people’s posts is no substitute for actually hiking with them, but I think you can get a fairly good sense of whose risk level matches yours, who seems to have the experience you require in a hiking partner, and who has common sense.
Much of their chapter on the winter boom explains why the preoccupation with danger & safety dropped–with the increase in backcountry skiing, trails were more likely to be broken out in winter; gear improved; state and volunteer rescue services expanded (BSP used to require winter climbers to have their own backup crew of rescuers ready to go in and get them), and so forth. Today the Watermans might include the invention of the cell phone, GPS, etc. The chapter then segues into an exposition of how certain mountaineering and hiking accidents capriciously catch the public’s attention and gets off the subject of this thread.
What the chapter brings to mind, though, is that the old-school conservative advice to have a minimum team of four for winter recreation (two to go for help, one to stay with the injured) doesn’t mean just any four people chosen randomly, it means four people with winter experience whom you know and trust. Today, the conservative advice would more likely be the “buddy system” of hiking with one other person you know and trust. Undoubtedly, if you hike in winter with people you don’t know, you could well increase your risk because of something foolhardy they do. You could also end up hiking with people whose risk level, or even whose idea of plain old common sense, is quite different from yours. But the blanket implication that hiking with others increases risk is misleading. Good hiking buddies are careful about one another and stay alert to the false bravado issue.
I have always assumed that one of the several reasons Darren set up VFTT and made the recent changes he has is to help people identify others they trust and might want to hike with, especially in winter. Reading people’s posts is no substitute for actually hiking with them, but I think you can get a fairly good sense of whose risk level matches yours, who seems to have the experience you require in a hiking partner, and who has common sense.
Lawn Sale
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I have hiked above treeline in the winter, but it I do take more precautions. I watch the weather more carefully, always let others know, and check in often. It's usually friends I let know since I'm single and live alone. But then again, it also means I'm not in a rush since I set my own timetable.
If I waited for others to do something, I'd never get anything done, so I make my own plans.
But, I do often see other people out on the trails, and usually find myself hiking in proximity to others.
In winter I always carry enough gear to spend the night, just in case. a Sleeping bag is 3 pounds and bivy is just over 1, so they're light enough to not worry about. I usually bring an ultralight stove as well, which brings the additional winter weight to just over 5 pounds (stove + food). Yes, my total pack weight my be 25 pounds, but I'be never had it be an issue where I wished I'd not brought something.
If I waited for others to do something, I'd never get anything done, so I make my own plans.
But, I do often see other people out on the trails, and usually find myself hiking in proximity to others.
In winter I always carry enough gear to spend the night, just in case. a Sleeping bag is 3 pounds and bivy is just over 1, so they're light enough to not worry about. I usually bring an ultralight stove as well, which brings the additional winter weight to just over 5 pounds (stove + food). Yes, my total pack weight my be 25 pounds, but I'be never had it be an issue where I wished I'd not brought something.
Pete_Hickey said:
I agree with this.
Also, it's a bitch to get that lighter lit when you don't have someone acting as a windbreak. Keep it below treeline
I don't think hiking alone is more dangerous, falling and trying to rescue yourself is.
Pig Pen
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Waumbek said:
So now I need to find three babysitters to go hiking with me in the winter.
Quite a few contributors state that they use extra caution when hiking alone. I guess the moral is that if you want to ignore the weather and use bad judgement then make sure that you hike with a group.
darren
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I guess the obvious needs stating again. The old school conservative reasoning for a team of 4 is that if 1 gets injured then 1 person stays with the injured while 2 go for help. 2 go for help so they ar enot hiking alone. If you only have 1 person go for help and that person gets hurt then no one will know about it and everyone is toast.
Plus 4 is a nice number because there has never been a documented bear attack on a group of 4 or more people. Not relavent to the winter discussion, but the safety of 4 applies in all seasons.
Do you have to get 3 babysitters? No. But as you pointed out, if you do go out solo and break your leg you are going to have a long time sitting in the snow to think about everything you have said here. Karma is a be-yatch.
Just to be clear - I'm NOT wishing this on you. I just think that karma has a notebook and she is filling it up
- darren
Plus 4 is a nice number because there has never been a documented bear attack on a group of 4 or more people. Not relavent to the winter discussion, but the safety of 4 applies in all seasons.
Do you have to get 3 babysitters? No. But as you pointed out, if you do go out solo and break your leg you are going to have a long time sitting in the snow to think about everything you have said here. Karma is a be-yatch.
Just to be clear - I'm NOT wishing this on you. I just think that karma has a notebook and she is filling it up
- darren
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--M.
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[Bolding mine.]Maddy said:
I think this is key: experience teaches us that no amount of prep or caution or anything will prevent Murphy's Law from happening any old time it wants. As has been said elsewhere, it's what we're able to do about it after the s*it hits the fan that drives the argument.
I mostly hike alone, 'cause that's how it has to be. But having kids and a wife to [not] screw over, I dial back to what I can still get out of when it all goes bad. My envelope shrinks and I stay inside it, whether on a summer hike in good conditions or while wearing crampons on a solo. So far, my envelope doesn't permit the accumulation of risk factors to include the parameters in dvbl's original post. It may some day, but not yet.
My family's message has been clear: get killed up there and they'll all take turns beating me with a shoe when they get my body back.
Happy Trails! (and hike yer own hike),
--M.
D
dvbl
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Pig Pen said:
Dear Mr. Pen, I give up. Your determination has outlasted my desire to care.
giggy
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I think darren and pig pen are correct.
Its depends -
one size don't fit all on this topic.
Its depends -
one size don't fit all on this topic.
Pig Pen
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Ok, all the evidence is is in and I will shut up now. One more thing though.
Actually, this is not stating the obvious, it is stating an old bromide that does not stand up to detailed analysis. You don't have to hike alone if you don't want to. The trouble is that people are making up rules and regulations based on this nonsense, Baxter Park being a prime example.
Did someone say something about getting stoned?
darren said:
Actually, this is not stating the obvious, it is stating an old bromide that does not stand up to detailed analysis. You don't have to hike alone if you don't want to. The trouble is that people are making up rules and regulations based on this nonsense, Baxter Park being a prime example.
Did someone say something about getting stoned?
JimC
Member
Managing Risk
It is a choice to hike alone, or not. Assessing risk and managing risk is what this is all about.
Thank goodness we have the choice (except in BSP). If you are poor at assessing and managing risk, the remaining pool of people will improve their average risk assessment and risk management scores.
Along with the right to choose (except in BSP), responsibility and acceptance of consequences are required.
I am of the opinion that hiking solo is not nearly as much fun, so I try to not hike solo. However, if I choose to hike solo, see above.
I'm with Pig Pen.
It is a choice to hike alone, or not. Assessing risk and managing risk is what this is all about.
Thank goodness we have the choice (except in BSP). If you are poor at assessing and managing risk, the remaining pool of people will improve their average risk assessment and risk management scores.
Along with the right to choose (except in BSP), responsibility and acceptance of consequences are required.
I am of the opinion that hiking solo is not nearly as much fun, so I try to not hike solo. However, if I choose to hike solo, see above.
I'm with Pig Pen.
darren
Poobah Emeritus
To be clear, I do not think that you have to hike in a group of 4. The "obvious" statement was to clarify why 4 is the "magic" number.
It should be "obvious" that the choice to hike solo or in a group is (outside of BSP) up to each individual. Choices of acceptable levels of risk are made every day. It is dangerous to drive a car, but I drive one every day. It is dangerous to cross a street, but I cross one every day. It is dangerous to mountain bike. I mountain biked very often for 7 years before I had a serious injury. As soon as my leg is good to go I will mountain bike again. I accept the risk. It is worth it to me.
- darren
It should be "obvious" that the choice to hike solo or in a group is (outside of BSP) up to each individual. Choices of acceptable levels of risk are made every day. It is dangerous to drive a car, but I drive one every day. It is dangerous to cross a street, but I cross one every day. It is dangerous to mountain bike. I mountain biked very often for 7 years before I had a serious injury. As soon as my leg is good to go I will mountain bike again. I accept the risk. It is worth it to me.
- darren
Kevin Rooney
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In some areas (ADK's?), 5 is the recommended number - 2 to stay with the victim, and 2 to go for help.darren said:
wromanow
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Does anyone carry a personal locator beacon? Seems to me they would be very usefull for solo winter backpacking / hiking. The units can be rented for a modest price online. The lithium ion batteries are said to operate down to temperatures of -40 F. Hopefully it wouldn't provide someone with a false sense of security to take greater chances. I tend to view it as an extra tool to augment winter backpacking/hiking skills.
