vagal nerve event, or how some moose scared the blood out of me

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Moose gets rare picture of Gnome

Mr. Gnome;
We have never met, but I too, am glad your fainting spell was just that and nothing any more long lasting.
Someday I do hope to meet you and would be glad to learn some of your "secret" skills in bagging some really awesome nature photography.
I can only imagine that moose couple grabbing your camera, snapping some choice images of a horizontal Forest Gnome and posting them on their forum... Can you imagine the chatter that posting would make?!
Glad your well, and will be keeping the images coming!
 
islandside said:
I can only imagine that moose couple grabbing your camera, snapping some choice images of a horizontal Forest Gnome and posting them on their forum... Can you imagine the chatter that posting would make?!
Rumor has it that the Webmoosester for VFTA (Views From The Antler) had to close down that particular thread. ;) :p
 
Thanks very much for all the well-wishes!!! I appreciate it very much! It was an intense experience and, for some reason, I had to go back to see what will happen to me physically the next time because this is my passion. Yesterday late afternoon, I waited around in the same place (location withheld due to approaching hunting season) and guess who showed up? My pulse started to quicken and that was not welcomed, but it calmed down again. My fear is that I'll fear the fear! I did my usual "see through the eyes of the moose" thing and acted like them, slowly getting a little closer.



moosegang097.jpg





I have a term, gawk factor, for the % of time they spend looking at me, or the frequency and ratio of time they spend looking at me compared to not. The lower the GF, the more comfortable they are. They showed a low GF after a few minutes. "Here's the fainting human again!" I had to get a little closer to see how my body would react and I was ok at about 30', although they didn't walk toward me. Time will tell.


moosegang116.jpg


Thanks again for well-wishes!

happy trails :)
 
Sorry to hear of your unfortunate incident but real happy to see that you are back in the saddle. Keep the great photos coming!

JohnL
 
Amazing photos as always, ForestGnome, and so glad you're OK. I have to say, in addition to your astounding ability to get up-close-and-personal with the big boys, you must be possessed of superhuman self-control not to bolt when confronted with that situation. The fainting thing is probably nature's blow-off valve!

Somewhere back in the dim recesses of time, before I wandered out of the house in pursuit of a decent paycheck, I was a psychologist of sorts. Your "return to the scene of the crime" is good therapy and I am glad you were able to face down your (very rational) concerns. Just take it easy!
 
I have had this happen to me as well:
The medical term is vaso-vagal syncope, and it is as others described.

I used to get it in classrooms when we had to watch medical/bloody films.
To this day I cannot watch (or listen to) something gory in a public place. Only on TV, at home - with MY thumb on the remote control.

A fair number of med students initially faint, but then they get desensitized.
Still, I do know at least one practicing physician who cannot stand needles and refuses to even consider donating blood (which I do, regularly).

Be especially careful where/when you faint: Unlike in movies and TV, people tend to fall FORWARD, like you apparently did. That fact cost me 4 front teeth, almost 30 years ago (no, they don't grew back).

One thing you can do to fight VVS is to compress your leg muscles and/or make like you're straining to.....you know, but not actually doing so. That pushes the blood back toward your brain. I believe pilots do that while pulling Gs - often aided by a suit which squeezes their lower bodies. Also, when you are standing for a long period of time, bending your legs at the knees helps.

Those photos are TOTALLY worth whatever you experienced - given that the moose left you alone.

Reportedly, a friend of a co-worker awoke from sleeping outdoors early one morning, to find himself almost nose to nose with a curious deer ! As the story goes, he let out a startled yell - and the DEER FAINTED !!

MR
 
Geezum, man... the things you do, the things you do... glad it was benign and you didn't wake up with anything written on your forehead.

Ed'n Lauky said:
I grabbed a tree and swung off the trail and started zigzagging through the woods and she stopped chasing me.
A long time ago I had heard that moose have poor eyesight (someone correct me if wrong). I sorta tested this - woke up in a Russell Pond (Baxter) lean-to one morning a few years ago to splashing on the pond right near shelter. Went to check it out and saw a cow and calf in the water! The cow heard me and marched back to my lean-to. I hid behind a tree maybe 15-20' from her as she walked around right in front of the shelter, looking around for me. After a 1/2 minute she walked back to the water. I have a video of it from behind the tree somewhere.

moonrock said:
One thing you can do to fight VVS is to compress your leg muscles and/or make like you're straining to.....you know, but not actually doing so. That pushes the blood back toward your brain. I believe pilots do that while pulling Gs - often aided by a suit which squeezes their lower bodies. Also, when you are standing for a long period of time, bending your legs at the knees helps.

Reportedly, a friend of a co-worker awoke from sleeping outdoors early one morning, to find himself almost nose to nose with a curious deer ! As the story goes, he let out a startled yell - and the DEER FAINTED !!

MR
Good tips! And you're sure it was a deer, and not one of these? :D
 
moonrock said:
regularly).
One thing you can do to fight VVS is to compress your leg muscles and/or make like you're straining to.....you know, but not actually doing so. That pushes the blood back toward your brain. I believe pilots do that while pulling Gs - often aided by a suit which squeezes their lower bodies. Also, when you are standing for a long period of time, bending your legs at the knees helps.
Also known as the Valsalva maneuver.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valsalva_maneuver
http://www.healthline.com/hlbook/art-valsalva-maneuver

And about 113K more references: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="valsalva+maneuver"&btnG=Search

BTW, the maneuver can be dangerous (may raise one's blood pressure too high) and people sometimes faint upon releasing it. In weight lifting, the exhaling while lifting is to prevent one from performing a valsalva maneuver.

Doug
 
You went back and got within 30 feet! :eek:

Great photos but please be carefull.

I don't think I could out run a Moose unless the moose slipped on the pile of poop I produced as I surely would have if I were in that situation.
 
DougPaul said:
In weight lifting, the exhaling while lifting is to prevent one from performing a valsalva maneuver.

Doug

Not to be confused with a loud, strangled yell, which announces to the world that the subject is an annoying "gym rat" :)
 
Holy cow(no pun intended)! :D Glad that you're alright and back out capturing some of the best photos i've seen...
 
DougPaul said:
Also known as the Valsalva maneuver.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valsalva_maneuver
http://www.healthline.com/hlbook/art-valsalva-maneuver

And about 113K more references: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="valsalva+maneuver"&btnG=Search

BTW, the maneuver can be dangerous (may raise one's blood pressure too high) and people sometimes faint upon releasing it. In weight lifting, the exhaling while lifting is to prevent one from performing a valsalva maneuver.

Doug

As a SCUBA diver, I've always thought the valsava maneuver is a way of clearing the pressure in your ears, even according to your Wiki link. The primary goal in doing so is to force air into your eustachian tubes and release the build up of pressure while descending...the leg muscle contractions seem to be different, no?

Scott
 
Ah yes, the old raisin bagel (vasovagal) response. My first experience with someone who had passed out from a vasovagal reaction was while I was precepting with a medic and that was what they called it in a joking manner. A raisin bagel, play on words and just as common. They occur pretty frequently often in older people especially when straining on the toilet. Yep, that’s right. Lots of elderly passed out near the toilet. Might sound funny but considering how many of them get themselves wedged into position between the toilet and wall that they can’t extract themselves it is far more dangerous to life and in particular limb than you might believe. Especially when they aren’t found for hours or days. Anyways, I digress. This is to just point out that there are lots of ways a vasovagal reaction can actually happen which in this case is actually a Valsalva maneuver causing a vasovagal reaction. Now the rushing of blood into your legs can be a more serious matter then the activation of the vagus nerve by straining causing changes in heart rate and blood pressure. Most people like you just standing around taking pictures of the moose and gets excited because of a perceived threat. The blood rushes to your legs preparing to get you running leaving your brain wanting a little. It feels left out. Things start to go grey then black and fortunately, (you will see why I say fortunately in a minute) you find yourself on the ground maybe wondering how this happened. But this fainting thing is actually a good thing. Why? Well the system is actually working the way it was designed. And by that I mean – Brain gets no oxygen, Brain says not good and turns out the lights. Body now goes level at ground height and brain gets its blood supply back. Greedy brain. Most of us walking around like standard bi-pedals this system works really good. It is self regulating. Like I said, brain has no oxygen, make body fall down, brain gets oxygen back, no harm, no foul.

What happens if you are not operating as a standard bi-pedal human walking around enjoying the sunshine? Well, who is that you might say? Anyone hanging from a harness and not using their legs. People who climb and have fallen and not pushing on the cliff face with their legs, people being rescued in a stokes basket being lowered vertically, people who work in trees hanging from a harness, theatrical people hanging from wires, etc. Adult humans actually have the ability to store their entire blood supply below their waist. Have you ever wondered how your blood gets from your feet back to your heart? Be honest, of course you haven’t. Well the heart doesn’t suck it up. It can’t. So nature has come up with a series of one way valves in the veins of your legs. Every time you move your legs the muscles squeeze your veins pushing blood up towards your heart and the one way valves prevents it from rushing back down. This system works great when you are walking. As a matter of fact when you are running there is actually very little blood in your feet. The command in the army called “parade rest” is in the command set specifically so the legs are not locked at the knees and the muscles can twitch. Unlike the way they are in the position of “attention” which allows the blood to pool in the legs and has caused innumerable embarrassments to privates through history on the parade field. What happens if you aren’t using your legs standing or walking by hanging in a harness? Well this can be problematic. It can actually kill you and it can do it pretty quickly. Anyone hanging from a harness is susceptible to Hanging Harness syndrome also known as Suspension Trauma. We use the same scenario. Hanging from a harness and blood is pooling in your legs. You are not using them so you pass out from lack of oxygen to the brain. You should fall over but can’t because the harness you are wearing doesn’t allow that to happen. What happens when your brain goes without oxygen for more than a short period of time? Correct, you die. You should have several minutes but you actually may have less because your airway may close due to unconsciousness causing respiratory arrest. How strong you are, your age, etc, all have nothing to do whether you will be affected by this.

The ways to avoid it are whenever you are in a harness try to sling another harness under your knees to hold your thighs in a horizontal position. Do not ride an imaginary bicycle. That just causes more blood to rush to the legs “to help” the muscles doing the exercising you are doing so it is counter productive.

Things to watch for. Anyone in a harness, hanging, and complaining of leg pain. That is the first indicator and it is a very bad indicator. It means you need to get his person down fast. Immediately! They may eventually pass out and I just explained what is happening with that.

The leg pain comes from the pooling blood causing an increase in the pressure in the legs. This is causing compartment syndrome. There are lots of causes of CS. You can look this up but the short answer on this is that because they have gone into CS their leg muscles have gone into anaerobic operation and are now producing lots of nasty byproducts and changing the blood chemistry. They have done this because of the buildup of blood in the legs. The items in the blood that have been created cannot be let back to the heart rapidly.

Now what? Well first thing after getting that person to the ground. DO NOT LET THEM LAY DOWN. They must be kept in a sitting position. This is contrary to just about what every emergency worker and most people are going to want to do. Laying these people down can kill them. You must protect their airway if they are unconscious but they must stay seated. The only exception to this is if they need CPR because they are in cardiac arrest. Any indication of Suspension trauma even just leg pain is a required hospital trip.

As a side note the Valsalva maneuver is sometimes used to help a patient with supraventricular tachycardia. It is also diagnostic.

And as always I make no warranties about this information and it not intended to diagnose, treat or do anything medical other than to inform. Always check with your doctor for more or corrected information.

Glad you made it through OK Forestgnome. As always love the pictures.

Regards,
Keith
 
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SAR-EMT40 said:
What happens if you are not operating as a standard bi-pedal human walking around enjoying the sunshine? Well, who is that you might say? Anyone hanging from a harness and not using their legs. People who climb and have fallen and not pushing on the cliff face with their legs, people being rescued in a stokes basket being lowered vertically, people who work in trees hanging from a harness, theatrical people hanging from wires, etc. Keith


First, many thanks for sharing your story, Forestnome, and fantastic photos, as always! But, I really do not want see you featured in a Werner Herzog film either! And, thanks Keith for the detailed explanation for the reason that hanging vertically in a sit harness or a litter is not good. I always knew that these situations were bad news, but now I know better the reason that litters are lowered horizontally down cliffs. I find threads such as this one the most educational and fascinating. Thanks all.
 
Just catching up...

Scary story, FG, glad you made it out OK. Great pics as always. We had a similar incident recently that had nothing to do with moose, unfortunately.

Jude turned an ankle, she was in a lot of pain and felt nauseous. We have had this happen before and usually the nausea passes and she is able to resume hiking. This time she sat down on a rock and the next thing I know she does a face plant. At first I thought she bent over to vomit, but the next thing I know she picks her head up and says, "Did I just pass out?", which apparently she had.

Could this have been the same thing?

KDT
 
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