Abandoned Hikers, a new trend?

[alpinista]

As a slowpoke and one who seems to be affected by extreme heat or extreme cold, I have never had a problem bailing on a trip _ as long as I know everyone else is safe and with company if they so desire it. For example, during a trip last summer up to Mt. Garfield, the heat was really getting to me, and I really needed to get off a summit and in the shade. I certainly didn't need or want to disrupt the rest of the hike for folks, who were on the summit for a friend's 48th. Some folks were nice enough to ask to make sure I was OK before they let me venture back down alone. I appreciated that they asked, and I hope they weren't miffed that I decided to head back down alone.

Certainly, if I were in distress or the conditions were completely dangerous, I would want to be accompanied by at least another hiking companion. But I've never been in that situation, so I can't speak to it.

All this said, the willingness to have people bail on me and vice versa is completely different during the three-seasons than it is during winter time. There are so many variables in winter time that can turn on a dime that personally I believe we should take extra precautions. While someone may be more than fine or the conditions be more than fine when they bail, all of that can change with little or no notice in the winter. Companionship is a critical safety factor, to my way of thinking.

I can't speak to the excursion that prompted this thread. I wasn't there. I don't know what "rules" were in place before and during the hike. I don't know what discussions took place. The above is just my take on how I approach hikes with others.

The key to all of this is to ensure everyone is on the same page before and during a hike. Communication is the name of the game _ in the mountains, as well as down here in the valleys. Too often, we end up with misunderstandings because we haven't verbalized how we're feeling or what we're thinking, and just assume people are on the same page.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I follow a simple ethic/concept when hiking with an informal (i.e., non-AMC, Sierra, etc) group - we all start together, we all end together. During the hike subgroups may be slower/faster, but re-grouping occurs regularly. Everybody keeps an eye out for everybody else. If someone needs to bail, the presumption is that another hiker will accompany that person out. Exceptions to this are carefully thought out, and precautions taken to verify that person got down safely. At the trailhead a check is made to make sure everyone's car starts, and if it has snowed that everyone makes it out to the state highway before we disperse. My goal is to hike only with others who have this same concept of group hikes.

There are other models for informal group hikes. This one works for me.

 

[Pucknuts61]

I received an email about this thread and feel a need to help alleviate some misunderstanding, as this thread seems to have gone astray and turned into a thread on our group instead of the original purpose.

The title was “abandoned hikers” and the idea of just bailing on fellow hikers which I think does have some serious significance, but using our little group as the example might not be the best case as there is less to this that people are making it.

However I would like to start by saying that the continued personal attacks on this forum are seriously taking away from it’s value and turning it into a chance to air personal vendetta’s in a public arena. That is neither the purpose of this site nor the reason a lot of people come here (at least I would hope so). Keep to the facts and leave personal difference’s aside, please. It gets tired quickly and good people move on because it’s not what they came here for.

Now as far as Saturday and our little group……..

We had a couple of friends (Brian and Jen) that wanted to start winter hiking. We (Tom, Julie, Dave, Magic, SilentCal, Sherpa John, myself, and a number of other friends) have been helping Jen and Brian achieve their goal. We started with simple hikes (Cherry Mt, and Mt Martha), then moved on to 4K’s (Waumbek, Jackson, and Cannon), on to multi-peak hikes (Wild Cat A&D and of course B&C), and we were going for a final winter bang by doing Jefferson.

Actually, Tom’s and my original plan was to car spot at the Notch Rd and Appalachia, grab Jefferson then ridge walk to Adams, over to Madison, then out Valley Way. A very noble idea to end the winter season, but in the end, plans changed as we couldn’t car spot and we only had 5 going so we didn’t want to press anyone beyond their means….or the means we thought they could handle.
There was no “group leader”; it was simply Tom, Magic and myself taking turns between lead and sweeper to help encourage Brian and Jen on a difficult route.
At the first Cap we caught up with the Wu Croo. Magic wanted to go up ahead to socialize with the Wu Croo as is his usual custom (talkative little devil he is). It wasn’t a problem and the 4 of us let the first group move on as we needed to gear up and get ready for the up coming challenge. We also stopped for a “spot of tea”, take in the views, take some pictures, and to trade some tales as we rested a little. We would meet Magic on the summit.
After the break we started up the balance of the Caps at a slow but steady pace. As far as I know we weren’t in a race, and it was a great day to continually stop and soak in the views, so we took our time.
Once at the summit we took a long rest but only for some more food and to share some more tales, but more importantly to enjoy the views. It was a heck of a day so we stayed a little longer when we received a message from another hiker that Magic was fine but a little cold and needed to drop down (communications worked fine)
Knowing this Tom and I took Jen and Brian over to the Great Gulf for some more views (and tales), then we went up a side of Clay to play on the ice, showed them all of the other mountains and the variety of trails, and also to practice self arrest and to show Brian and Jen how it’s done, and to take a few more pictures.
Tagging a mountain summit and then dropping down just to put a check mark to show we did a mountain isn’t the way I enjoy the day. The sun was out, the winds had died down, and the Rockpile was totally clear, so we took our time on the ridge and considered a couple of different descents (I’ve never walked the Cog, so that was another possibility to make the day longer) all the while taking our time to stop for a few more pictures and conversation.
But you should also know that Tom and I are notorious for walking out in headlamps as our preference is to truly enjoy the day and not rush for it to end (and man, they don’t get much better than it did this day!).
We could have walked fast, or slow, or we could have just loved to be in the mountains that day, as we did and as was what we wanted to do once we were there.
When we hit the Cog parking lot Magic was there as expected and we moved on to our dinner plans.

We appreciate the concerns (although Magic was the only one in the lot waiting for us), but there really isn’t much more to this than a small group of hikers enjoying their time on a glorious day and one hiker that likes to socialize.
Bill

 

[sierra]

oh oh

Unless your paying a guide you should be prepared to fend for yourself. Now that may sound harsh but reliance on people you meet through the net and others places is sketchy at best.Thats not to say there are not some great people out there to meet and learn from but you should be prepared ie. have your own maps and compass and no how to use them, have all the proper gear and above all the wisdom to know your limits and when the group is exceeding them.
My own story. I met this girl once through the bulleten board at Pinkham notch. We agreed to meet and climb Adams and Madison together. Her background was that she was new to the area and wanted to "bag" all the 4k's, I was glad to help as I had at this point done them and was glad to repeat any of them to help her out. Anywho, we where high on Madison in dreadfull conditions, I estimate we where less then .2 tenths of a mile from Madison's summit, the winds where around 60mph or more, temps had fallen to 20 or so and had every indication of continueing to drop. I deemed the attempt to be beyond reasonable and informed her we should descend. At this point she reluctantly agreed. We made it back to the hut and she was pissed as all get out (which surprised me). She informed me that I "cost" her the summit because I was to cautious. She had never hiked in the Whites before this and to be honest had no conception of how bad it can get on the northern peaks. She then informed me she was going back up to summit. The conditions where at least as bad and proboly getting worse. I did my best to advise her against it to no avail. WE then seperated, I went down she went up. I never heard from her again, I have no idea what happened to her. This was a decision I made and stand by, no summit is worth putting yourself at risk, I dont care how many you need.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Unless your paying a guide you should be prepared to fend for yourself. Now that may sound harsh but reliance on people you meet through the net and others places is sketchy at best.Thats not to say there are not some great people out there to meet and learn from but you should be prepared ie. have your own maps and compass and no how to use them, have all the proper gear and above all the wisdom to know your limits and when the group is exceeding them.
My own story. I met this girl once through the bulleten board at Pinkham notch. We agreed to meet and climb Adams and Madison together. Her background was that she was new to the area and wanted to "bag" all the 4k's, I was glad to help as I had at this point done them and was glad to repeat any of them to help her out. Anywho, we where high on Madison in dreadfull conditions, I estimate we where less then .2 tenths of a mile from Madison's summit, the winds where around 60mph or more, temps had fallen to 20 or so and had every indication of continueing to drop. I deemed the attempt to be beyond reasonable and informed her we should descend. At this point she reluctantly agreed. We made it back to the hut and she was pissed as all get out (which surprised me). She informed me that I "cost" her the summit because I was to cautious. She had never hiked in the Whites before this and to be honest had no conception of how bad it can get on the northern peaks. She then informed me she was going back up to summit. The conditions where at least as bad and proboly getting worse. I did my best to advise her against it to no avail. WE then seperated, I went down she went up. I never heard from her again, I have no idea what happened to her. This was a decision I made and stand by, no summit is worth putting yourself at risk, I dont care how many you need.

For FWIW, Sierra - I think you did exactly the right thing in this case.

 

[dr_wu002]

For FWIW, Sierra - I think you did exactly the right thing in this case.

I'll second this.

this thread seems to have gone astray and turned into a thread on our group instead of the original purpose.

The title was “abandoned hikers” and the idea of just bailing on fellow hikers which I think does have some serious significance, but using our little group as the example might not be the best case as there is less to this that people are making it.

I agree too. Things are drifting.

-Dr. Wu

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I agree too. Things are drifting.

-Dr. Wu

And I'll second this one.

Let's keep the focus of this thread on the different styles/models of group hikes, not second guessing/nitpicking a hike we have little or no personal knowledge about.

 

[David Metsky]

<mod hat>
Please focus the discussion on group hiking strategies and choices rather than on specific people or incidents. There are a few posts that are on the borderline, I'd like to keep this discussion going since it's very valuable information.
</mod hat>

-dave-

 

[sierra]

I think specific examples help in making a point, but the mods post is noted.

 

[David Metsky]

I think specific examples help in making a point, but the mods post is noted.

True, and I don't mean to stop people from using real world examples. They certainly are the best way to raise issues. But it should be possible to do so without identifying people or using this forum to attack or insult others.

Please carry on.

-dave-

 

[Kevin Rooney]

well said all,

I will add by saying it "depends" on who/what/where/when/how, etc..

I think "everyone staying in a group" at all times is "old school".

I guess I have a different take on hiking preferences - I wouldn't charactorize these differences as "old school" vs "new school" vs something else as that clouds the real issue. To me, the real issue is knowing what to expect from your hiking companions once you leave the trailhead, and what they can expect from you. Most any set of expectations is fine, so long at its understood and agreed to by all ahead of time, and that all behave the way they promised on the hike itself. MEB raises the real dilemma of what can happen when people don't act as they promised.

It's more about setting expectations. There will always be basic differences between people, and finding a group of like-minded people, and understanding the underlying assumptions is the key to most group endeavors, whether it hiking, playing a pickup game of softball, or raising a barn.

 

[Barb Harris]

I was taught the leader of a group goes the speed of the slowest hiker in the group. I always remind my friends of that when I lag in the back to just keep me in sight Especially on a bushwhack!

Happy Trails!
Barb

 

[dug]

Interesting. For years, my mother only went with me on hikes. She wanted to join a group, but since she perceived herself to be a slower hiker she was worried she would be holding everyone up. I had always gone ahead of her, but only by a matter of minutes. It may have looked like I was way in front, but in reality I was always usually just around the corner. (My dog was sure to run between the two of us, to make sure we were together...that's a story for a different thread ).

One day, in a casual conversation, my mother and neighbor found they had a common interest: hiking. Our neighbor led AMC trips. My mother was thrilled to get someone else to go with her (since I have other interests that prevent me from going as much as I used to).

She found that she isn't as slow as she thought. Most of the time, she was right in line with everyone else. But, there were a few hikes were there were some dirty looks thrown her way by some hikers who felt she was holding them back.

I guess that's why I only hike with just a few people...if any at all. There are too many group dynamics that I can't satisfy.

 

[sweeper]

Most of the people I take to the woods are novices or slower hikers. I always lead from the rear, "sweeper".
In groups with experienced hikers there's always been a collection point, mostly the summit, and everyone got there at their own pace.

 

[giggy]

It's more about setting expectations.

I would agree 100% kevin -

 

[audrey]

When you are dealing with novice hikers, it's doubly important to behave as expected. You have no idea what a person's attitude is towards hiking, let alone being left behind, even in the most benign circumstances.

Last summer, we had just come off the Seward herd path and we met again the ADK group who were returning from Seymour, whom we'd met in the parking lot that morning.

A couple of the women were straggling a bit behind and we walked with them. One was especially looking forward to stopping at the Blueberry lean-to for a rest and a snack. Their companions were still visible in the distance and we observed that they walked right past the lean-to. This was quite upsetting to the two women, and they weren't comfortable with stopping alone, even though we explained there weren't any tricky places ahead that they could get lost.

A little way along, we caught up with a few from the group who had apparently decided to wait for the stragglers. At that point we felt we could forge ahead.

We caught up with the leaders near the parking lot, and they were signing the whole group out, even though half of them hadn't even arrived yet and were not in sight.

This was a small incident but left us with a bad taste. It didn't help that some righteous person had left a piece of paper under our windshield wiper that apparently had been on the ground near our car, assuming we had dropped it. Nor that the two apparent leaders even bothered to say hello to us, either in the morning or on the return trip.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

....my friends ...

Ahhhh! That's different for me. When I'm with friends, I'm just taking a walk in the woods with him/her/them. Of course I stay together.

When I'm hiking with a group, I don't necessarily care.

 

[MadRiver]

I have the unenviable distinct of being on both sides of this issue. If I hike with my wife and close friends, I am always the fastest hiker. If I hike with others that I have hooked up with on the net (you know who you are) I find myself being on the slow side. If I’m with my wife and friends I periodically stop to allow them to catch up. I’m never more than a few minutes ahead at any given time, so there isn’t any safety issue. If I’m with faster hikers and I try to keep their pace I know I will eventually burnout, so I just hike my own hike and allow them to forge ahead. I’m always self sufficient in both having the proper gear and having my own car at the trailhead, so if we separate there isn’t an issue.

I would be reluctant to join a group where we had to car spot and all the hikers would have to keep pace with one another, especially if I hadn’t hiked with anyone before. For instance, there is the Presi Traverse coming up in June. As much as I would like to do this hike, I would be hesitant in joining because I would be required to keep pace with the others. Although that might not be a problem, it doesn’t however give me much freedom in adjusting my pace throughout the course of the hike. So if I did do this hike, I would arrange for my own transportation on both ends of the trip. In that way, I am not beholding to anyone, nor am I holding anyone back.

 

[Tuco]

It’s been said before but I’ll concur it’s the expectation of the group and communication within that ensures no issues. If somebody leaves the group and there is an expectation that they will return and don’t, that could lead to concern. Otherwise, I think a person that requires assistance and companionship for the whole hike would need to make that clear before the hike.

Madriver- while not a spokesperson for the Pound the Presi’s hike- I can assure you from past participation in JayH’s charity hikes that people split up throughout the day based on their abilities and that efforts are made to assist in shuttling everybody so we can get off the trail safely. I would bet this June that there will be groups leaving at different times and people (including my slow self) will be hiking alone at times regularly. Don’t let that concern keep you from joining in this fun and charitable event.

 

[Maddy]

I think the key word here is "abandoned". My philosophy is when I am hiking solo "it's all about me". The rules change when there are others involved. Whe hiking in groups we do become our "brothers keepers". It has always been my understanding that hiking with others is not only for social reasons but for safety. I think the one exception is when someone wishes to forge ahead into dangerous territory in adverse weather conditions as described by Sierra. No one should have to risk their life to follow someone unprepared into danger for no good reason. I would make every effort to be certain that the individual returned to the base in a reasonable amoun't of time and I would notify the appropriate people if there was no sign of them. If I had to leave the state I would notify someone in charge of the area and ask them to please keep an eye out. I also feel very strongly that if someone has to return because they are tired or not feeling well someone should accompany them back down.
When making decisions I always try to think of what the consequences of my actions might be and if I could live with them.