Leave no Trace...Really?

[Stan]

Apparently they do, (see above links), but really, what is the point of that? Out of sight maybe, but still there!

Maybe so's not so noticeable when stuck to shoes?

 

[Guthook]

I just remembered an experiment a friend of mine did a while back. It wasn't exactly laboratory-grade science, but I found it pretty interesting. Check it out...

Basically, he left different types of toilet paper out in his backyard either buried, exposed, or left under a rock, and measured how much of the TP was left over time. This was in southern california, so not exactly the same conditions as up here in NE, but interesting none the less, I say.

 

[Brambor]

cool

Excellent info.

 

[TCD]

Good info. Thanks.

This thread shines a little light on a couple of the generally preached tenets about TP:

"TP doesn't decompose when it's buried - you have to pack it out, burn it, etc." It's only one study, but this data set indicates that that's just wrong. Anyone have any data that supports that TP does not decompose?

"Animals will dig up the TP." Apparently, there's no data to support that, either.

So based on Little Rickie's poll, most of us on VFTT are doing the right thing, based on the small amount of data.

Disclaimer - it appears that there is very little data around any of this. It probably needs several good validated studies before anyone should really push any conclusions.

 

[DougPaul]

I would think very carefully about drawing such conclusions...

This thread shines a little light on a couple of the generally preached tenets about TP:

"TP doesn't decompose when it's buried - you have to pack it out, burn it, etc." It's only one study, but this data set indicates that that's just wrong. Anyone have any data that supports that TP does not decompose?

I'm not aware of anyone who made such a claim. I suspect that most knowledgeable people believe that buried TP will decompose in a moist temperate environment. (Its primary constituent is cellulose--the same as many plants.) However, it will probably last much longer in a dry or below freezing environment.

"Animals will dig up the TP." Apparently, there's no data to support that, either.

Is there any data to suggest that animals will not dig it up? What if you use scented TP? Perhaps animals will dig up feces too, but it is less noticeable than TP. Or perhaps digging up TP is just a side effect of digging up feces. Or perhaps only some animals will dig it up.

Disclaimer - it appears that there is very little data around any of this. It probably needs several good validated studies before anyone should really push any conclusions.

Given that there is very little data, the correct conclusion is "insufficient data--no conclusion" not a bunch of unsupported conclusions.

There is also the problem of observational bias--if you look for something you are more likely to find it. (Conversely, if you don't look for something you are less likely to find it.) Designing good unbiased experiments can be difficult.

Guthook's friend's experiments look like a good start* (although they need to be tried elsewhere and under different conditions). FWIW, septic tank safe/marine/fast dissolving/RV TP is designed to degrade rapidly--thus it is not surprising that it degraded faster than the "standard" TPs tested.

* Note that most of the experiment period was dry with significant rain only occurring near the end of the test period.

I suspect the answers are likely to be highly dependent on the environment: eg: temp range? (frozen?), moisture levels? (desert?), soil type?

The hiking "authorities" (official or self-proclaimed) often try to give advice that is as broad as possible. So the reason for some advised procedure might apply to some set of conditions but not another. And they may also tend to prefer "safe" options such as carrying out TP is always environmentally safe compared to leaving it. There is also the issue of usage level--a practice that might be acceptable in lightly used areas might be unacceptable in heavily used areas.

Doug

 

[TCD]

"I'm not aware of anyone who made such a claim."

Actually, lots of folks claim these things as absolute facts - I hear them all the time, repeated like a mantra. Here are just a few from the million examples:

http://www.thebackpacker.com/beginners/ettiquitte.php

http://www.wtay.com/bestenvironmentalpractices.aspx

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~doc/leavenotrace/

That was the whole point of my post. I agree with you completely that making a bunch of unsupported conclusions is not a good idea. My conclusion is the same as you stated; insufficient data - no conclusion.

For that reason, I am somewhat put off by the "holier than thou" crowd preaching these things as facts. In fact, that's the only reason I posted to this thread.

 

[--M.]

[...]
Anyone have any data that supports that TP does not decompose?

"Animals will dig up the TP." Apparently, there's no data to support that, either.

...

Disclaimer - it appears that there is very little data around any of this. It probably needs several good validated studies before anyone should really push any conclusions.

I can offer utterly scientific testimony of a sample set of one (an "anecdote," a "case study"), on each issue:

First, yes, of course it decomposes, and quite quickly. I've seen it on local trails and in my hometown, which has a horrible hazing tradition with local sports teams and their trees. Just as you would think, the stuff doesn't last long. It's just ugly as sin while it does.

Second, I found myself in need on a local backwoods jaunt a few years ago, and was able to return to the scene of the crime multiple times: Yes, it (a reasonably correct cat-hole, tp packed out, feces left behind) got dug up, completely vanished. The area was easily discovered; the varmint had his way; there was no evidence whatsoever after that (a matter of days, not weeks, before my return to check on things).

On the other hand, finding an entire roll of soggy tp in a bag on Carrigain (near the well!) was oh-so-attractive. I think that that well is permanently untrustworthy.

I would add that I heard from a lean-to caretaker (Imp, I think) that even baby-wipes will be acceptably gone after (his words) six months. He said he didn't think it inappropriate for baby-wipes to be included at the outhouse.

True stories!

 

[RoySwkr]

The Baxter Park paper this summer says if you have to go above treeline, either pack feces out or leave them on the surface 200' from the trail as digging a hole in the alpine zone is more damaging

Something not yet mentioned as an alternative to packing out liquid is to pee in the trail which is already disturbed

 

[DougPaul]

Something not yet mentioned as an alternative to packing out liquid is to pee in the trail which is already disturbed

In some situations, this will result in animals digging up the trail for the salt and perhaps becoming habituated. Don't know what the policy in Baxter is, but this has resulted in habituated mountain goats in Olympic NP and some attacks on humans. (A man was killed by a goat in Olympic NP recently.)

Doug

 

[Chip]

In some situations, this will result in animals digging up the trail for the salt and perhaps becoming habituated. Don't know what the policy in Baxter is, but this has resulted in habituated mountain goats in Olympic NP and some attacks on humans. (A man was killed by a goat in Olympic NP recently.)

Doug

I ... well ... are you serious ? There was enough pee in the same spot over a short enough period of time (think rain and snow) that salt levels became concentrated enough to habituate animals ? And you're implying the goat in Olympic was thusly habituated ?

EDIT: Okay, I just googled it. Park officials are concerned that the goats are seeking salt, but there was also mention of backpacks (salt from sweat) and salt licks. I didn't see where there was evidence the goats were actually finding enough trail-side-salt-from-human-pee-concentrations for that to be the answer, just a concern. That goat was also in rut, so he wasn't seeking salt.

The Baxter Park paper this summer says if you have to go above treeline, either pack feces out or leave them on the surface 200' from the trail as digging a hole in the alpine zone is more damaging.

200' from the trail in Baxter could lead to some hairy hang time. I'm thinking they'll revise that directive as soon as someone goes missing. Blue Bags are not that difficult and give you that proud, expeditiony feeling.

 

[Snowflea]

Yep.

Haven't noticed this phenomenon on the East Coast, but in the Rockies I have personally witnessed mtn. goats and bighorn sheep that have become habituated to high-use campsites because they are attracted to the salt in human urine.

And I recently had to chase down a mama deer at Hamilton Lakes on the High Sierra Trail out here in California. My husband's shorts were drying on a bush, and the deer came by and grabbed 'em, presumably because she was attracted to the salt. Okay, so I didn't have to chase her very far -- she saw me coming and dropped them PDQ.

 

[DougPaul]

And I recently had to chase down a mama deer at Hamilton Lakes on the High Sierra Trail out here in California. My husband's shorts were drying on a bush, and the deer came by and grabbed 'em, presumably because she was attracted to the salt. Okay, so I didn't have to chase her very far -- she saw me coming and dropped them PDQ.

I have also read of deer chewing on clothing that was hanging to dry.

Porcupines also chew on salty items--eg outhouse boards.

Doug

 

[dr_wu002]

In some situations, this will result in animals digging up the trail for the salt and perhaps becoming habituated. Don't know what the policy in Baxter is, but this has resulted in habituated mountain goats in Olympic NP and some attacks on humans. (A man was killed by a goat in Olympic NP recently.)

Doug

Are you saying that goats become addicted to eating shit and are willing to maim and kill humans while trying to acquire it? You piaint an awful picture, Mr. Paul, one that makes me fear each time that I dig a cat hole in my backyard from here on in. 5+ pages on drinking pee pee dishwater... Impressive!

-Dr. Wu

 

[skiguy]

Porcupines also chew on salty items--eg outhouse boards.

Doug

......along with Backpack shoulder straps, waistbelts, cookware, fuel bottles, and car tires.

 

[Little Rickie]

Are you saying that goats become addicted to eating shit and are willing to maim and kill humans while trying to acquire it? You piaint an awful picture, Mr. Paul, one that makes me fear each time that I dig a cat hole in my backyard from here on in. 5+ pages on drinking pee pee dishwater... Impressive!

-Dr. Wu

and I was only worried about mountain lions and grizzly bears.

 

[erugs]

......car tires.

That's why you don't pee within the shelter of your car.

 

[DougPaul]

Are you saying that goats become addicted to eating shit and are willing to maim and kill humans while trying to acquire it?

Not eating shit, just pee soaked dirt...
(But if it makes you feel any better, other organisms covet the feces.)

You piaint an awful picture, Mr. Paul, one that makes me fear each time that I dig a cat hole in my backyard from here on in. 5+ pages on drinking pee pee dishwater... Impressive!

I do my best...

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

......along with Backpack shoulder straps, waistbelts, cookware, fuel bottles, and car tires.

Don't forget marmots that like to chew on brake lines...

Doug

 

[jniehof]

Don't forget marmots that like to chew on brake lines...

That's what coyote urine is for.

Now, of course, that attracts the goats and we're back to square one....

 

[DSettahr]

I ... well ... are you serious ? There was enough pee in the same spot over a short enough period of time (think rain and snow) that salt levels became concentrated enough to habituate animals ?

I have a funny story that exemplifies how habituated some animals can become to the salt in pee. This winter, while climbing Marcy in the Adirondacks, my friend Danie and I stayed one night at one of the Bushnell Falls lean-tos. That night, I got up to pee, and decided to pee her name into the snow in a place where she would see it in the morning. The next morning we got up, and a rabbit had eaten all of the snow that I had peed on. Not a single trace of her name remained...

So yeah, it sounds silly, but it's definitely true that we don't always completely understand the impacts that we can have on the environment!