As far as I know, there are very few rules about flags. It's all custom based on edicate. This includes either taking it down at dusk or illuminating it, taking the flag down during inclement weather, proper disposal when faded, tattered, or torn, and also displaying the flag.
When does a memorial become trash in a backcountry setting?
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As far as I know, there are very few rules about flags. It's all custom based on edicate. This includes either taking it down at dusk or illuminating it, taking the flag down during inclement weather, proper disposal when faded, tattered, or torn, and also displaying the flag.
Kevin Judy and Emma
Well-known member
@Peaks, and for anyone else who may not know or may just be interested. There are very clear and concise laws governing the display of the American Flag, which many of us served under.
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm
KDT
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm
KDT
Scubahhh
Member
On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
That's the second verse, by the way.
I was delighted to see a small memorial flag on the Moosilauke summit signpost before dawn this morning, "properly illuminated" by the starlight and my headlamp, and to hear its reassuring flapping in the breeze. Even when it's torn to shreds it'll be inspiring to me and will never become an eyesore.
Just my 2¢, and Doc Benton agrees.
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
That's the second verse, by the way.
I was delighted to see a small memorial flag on the Moosilauke summit signpost before dawn this morning, "properly illuminated" by the starlight and my headlamp, and to hear its reassuring flapping in the breeze. Even when it's torn to shreds it'll be inspiring to me and will never become an eyesore.
Just my 2¢, and Doc Benton agrees.
IQuest
New member
There were no flags or laminated cards on the Twins or Bonds today and none on South or Middle Carter the other day. When I did Tecumseh last week the card said #41. Unless the seven peaks I mentioned are his last, the memorials are being removed.
TDawg
Well-known member
I see them as future trash, if not already and took it upon myself to remove the one on Mt. Whiteface.
I respect this mans cause but unless he's gonna hike them all over again and collect them, which I doubt, then his wilderness ethics are lacking at best.
I respect this mans cause but unless he's gonna hike them all over again and collect them, which I doubt, then his wilderness ethics are lacking at best.
erugs
New member
We were on Washington yesterday and saw a memorial wreath, some photos, and many individual flowers wrapped in plastic along the stems. I don't know who, or when, or why, but it seemed wrong to me. If you are having a memorial service, put the display up and then take it down after the service has concluded. I honor the memory of people who have gone through something horrible, but agree that as soon as it looks like trash it should be treated honorably and taken away.
Darl58
Active member
I believe what you saw was in honor of the 10th Mtn Division...once a year they go up and honor them, the large plague on the rock pile is in their honor, not everyone stops and reads it... The Mt Washington staff remove the wreath and flowers in a few days but it is left alone and the flowers and wreath is placed there by the families of lost members and 10th Mtn Division Vets that continue the tradition. It was held last Wed. One of my neighbors was an original 10th Mtn Vet and his family goes each year so his widow can lay flowers for him...Those flowers and wreath are a special honor ceremony......
erugs
New member
I don't want to diminish anyone's loss or service. In my mind the question remains, when a celebration or honor of life tribute looks weather-worn, should it remain? That is a judgment call and the answers will vary, that's for sure.
bobandgeri
Well-known member
The person putting them up has a Facebook page describing what he is doing :
https://www.facebook.com/48ForTheFallen
From the page:
My name is Ray Cabral. I'm a Disabled Veteran. This summer I am going to climb the 48 4000 foot Mountains in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. I am going to dedicate the first 42 to the memory of 42 U.S. service members from N.H. have died in Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom by raising a U.S. Flag and placing some information about him on the Summit of each mountain. In addition to placing these memorials, I am raising money for the Wounded Warrior Project. Please go to the link below to make a donation. Thank you.
The one of Tecumseh was lying on the ground when I was there this morning - I debated whether to remove it but instead re-positioned it in the cairn so it more secure for the time being.
https://www.facebook.com/48ForTheFallen
From the page:
My name is Ray Cabral. I'm a Disabled Veteran. This summer I am going to climb the 48 4000 foot Mountains in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. I am going to dedicate the first 42 to the memory of 42 U.S. service members from N.H. have died in Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom by raising a U.S. Flag and placing some information about him on the Summit of each mountain. In addition to placing these memorials, I am raising money for the Wounded Warrior Project. Please go to the link below to make a donation. Thank you.
The one of Tecumseh was lying on the ground when I was there this morning - I debated whether to remove it but instead re-positioned it in the cairn so it more secure for the time being.
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He's physically attaching them to summit sign posts with staples? Yeah, those are going to be removed by trail crews pretty soon. It's a noble idea, extremely poorly executed, IMO.
bobandgeri
Well-known member
The one we saw on Middle Tripyramid was attached to a tree with electrical staples. Tecumseh was just stuck into the cairn.
I posted on his FB page that some/many are concerned about the Leave No Trace aspect and properly disposing of the flags - his response below. I suggest that anybody who has issue with what he is doing let him know directly.
For the record I did consider the "Leave no trace" aspect. The materials were not designed to make it through the winter. I had hoped the what is happening would actually happen. As the environment did it's work on them they would reflect that. In my opinion hikers are a respectful lot. It has always been my hope that as the memorials fell into disrepair the would be dealt with appropriately and in a dignified way. Your "everybody who hiked" strawman is just that because it has not happened. In this case I wish it would have... At least for a little while. Just curious, what is the view of some/many of the hiking community of the Huts etc that AMC has littered the Whites with? Thanks for your input. See you on the trails. 12 more to go!
I posted on his FB page that some/many are concerned about the Leave No Trace aspect and properly disposing of the flags - his response below. I suggest that anybody who has issue with what he is doing let him know directly.
For the record I did consider the "Leave no trace" aspect. The materials were not designed to make it through the winter. I had hoped the what is happening would actually happen. As the environment did it's work on them they would reflect that. In my opinion hikers are a respectful lot. It has always been my hope that as the memorials fell into disrepair the would be dealt with appropriately and in a dignified way. Your "everybody who hiked" strawman is just that because it has not happened. In this case I wish it would have... At least for a little while. Just curious, what is the view of some/many of the hiking community of the Huts etc that AMC has littered the Whites with? Thanks for your input. See you on the trails. 12 more to go!
Scubahhh
Member
From the page:
My name is Ray Cabral. I'm a Disabled Veteran. This summer I am going to climb the 48 4000 foot Mountalins in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. I am going to dedicate the first 42 to the memory of 42 U.S. service members from N.H. have died in Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom by raising a U.S. Flag and placing some information about him on the Summit of each mountain. In addition to placing these memorials, I am raising money for the Wounded Warrior Project. Please go to the link below to make a donation. Thank you.
Thank you for your kind hearted and brave actions, Ray, whatever others might think of the execution. I suspect those whom you've upset either haven't read or don't understand your words and the motivation behind your memorial.
I've honored your request and made a small donation to your cause. Now I feel entitled to voice my own concerns:
Those memorials don't bother me in the least, and just about the time they become trash, the wind'll blow them away and they'll assume thei rightful place in history: ashes to ashes, just like the rest of us.
Toilet paper. Now there's a bandwagon I can jump oust my 2¢... Again.
My name is Ray Cabral. I'm a Disabled Veteran. This summer I am going to climb the 48 4000 foot Mountalins in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. I am going to dedicate the first 42 to the memory of 42 U.S. service members from N.H. have died in Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom by raising a U.S. Flag and placing some information about him on the Summit of each mountain. In addition to placing these memorials, I am raising money for the Wounded Warrior Project. Please go to the link below to make a donation. Thank you.
Thank you for your kind hearted and brave actions, Ray, whatever others might think of the execution. I suspect those whom you've upset either haven't read or don't understand your words and the motivation behind your memorial.
I've honored your request and made a small donation to your cause. Now I feel entitled to voice my own concerns:
Those memorials don't bother me in the least, and just about the time they become trash, the wind'll blow them away and they'll assume thei rightful place in history: ashes to ashes, just like the rest of us.
Toilet paper. Now there's a bandwagon I can jump oust my 2¢... Again.
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erugs
New member
I understand from what I have seen that Ray believes in what he is doing and sees it honorable. I understand how people do not want to say anything against what soldiers or others who serve to protect what we all value. But I agree with many who feel it has not thought through. Honor of service does not become trash. It is cared for and has some ladting message. This offends many. It has little value in comparison to what these soldiers gave. What a shame. I would suggest funding or maintaining a trail in honor of the sacrifice in a way that would maintain a special and lasting message. What trail might readers suggest for this purpose? Much like the Four Soldiers Trail. What trail most deserves adoption of such strong feelings? What trail might be worthy of work and even renaming of this honor? I suggest the section of Kinsman Ridge Trail that is in such horrible shape on Cannon. VISIBLE - right out of the notch. MEmorable - right near the Old Man who lost his battle with the war against the elements. Bandwagon here?
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iagreewithjamie
Member
I agree. If you want to use hiking as a way to honor the fallen, maintain a trail in their name instead of placing a memorial on each summit. Leave No Trace doesn't have exceptions just because someone is noble in their trace-leaving. Leave No Trace... but leave a legacy. Sponsor a trail.
The Eisenhower one was on the Edmand's Path trailhead kiosk Saturday morning. Pierce's was sitting in the summit carin. Saw ones Sunday on Liberty and Flume, both also sitting wedged between rocks. I left all as I found it, they were in good shape for now.
On a side note, someone on Liberty noticed the flag, and it started up a conversation about Flags on the 48. It was a great opportunity to explain that wonderful event which many here participate in. It occurred to me that that day might be a perfect time for this gentleman to "finish".
On a side note, someone on Liberty noticed the flag, and it started up a conversation about Flags on the 48. It was a great opportunity to explain that wonderful event which many here participate in. It occurred to me that that day might be a perfect time for this gentleman to "finish".
JustJoe
Active member
I've personally seen a ranger remove an engraved memorial rock from the summit cairn on Mt Field. His reason was that it does not keep with the LNT principles. I suspect, should any rangers come across these, they will remove them.
I'm also not as confident as this person is that the (plastic) laminated photo and story will turn to dust any time soon.
I'm also not as confident as this person is that the (plastic) laminated photo and story will turn to dust any time soon.
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Kevin Judy and Emma
Well-known member
Just curious: How many who are reacting negatively to this have served, or lost someone who served? I find what Ray is doing a hell of a lot less offensive than using a magic marker to write Rastaman on every trail sign in the Whites which I have been looking at for years, or carving The Link to read The Dink... from one Disabled Vet to another, go for it Ray and if you want, I'll do the 48 with you again to take them all down...
KDT
KDT
There are lots of great causes, and I haven't heard anyone doubting Ray's integrity or the intention behind the cause. It's the act of leaving unauthorized, unattended, slightly destructive, and quickly degradable monuments on summits in the WMNF that is in question. I think people would have the same reaction no matter what the cause, and history has shown the same reaction to other similar monuments placed on summits over the years.
iagreewithjamie
Member
This doesn't really have anything to do with who served and didn't serve. There are rules about leaving no trace in the wilderness. Just because someone served and wants to honor his fallen comrades doesn't mean that he is suddenly exempt from observing Leave No Trace. Don't you think it's a bit selfish to break the rules to leave memorials in places where memorials don't belong? We as hikers strive to be good stewards of the environment and encourage others to do the same: people who want to litter the wilderness with memorials are well-intentioned, but still 100% in the wrong.
Plus, it's a memorial to honor people who really didn't have anything specific to do with the White Mountains. 42 memorials on 42 peaks to honor NH soldiers is a nice gesture... but what does it have to do with the Whites? There's no memorial to Swampy Paris on any summit... and Swampy gave his whole life to the Whites. While it would be awesome to honor him with a memorial, I think it would insult his character by not observing LNT.
And just because I'm against putting memorials all throughout the wilderness, it doesn't mean I'm any less patriotic, and doesn't mean that I don't support the troops. I think there is a time and place for everything, and littering 42 mountain summits is more of an afront to all of us who strive to observe LNT than it is a memorial to those who have fallen. Take the Waternomee Memorial, for instance - this was the very place where American troops lost their lives... so if there is any place in the wilderness where a memorial is appropriate, its this location.
And for the bozos who graffiti trail signs and destroy cairns, they're in a different category than the memorial guy. The memorial guy is well-intentioned, but misguided: the vandals are just your average idiot with a pair of hiking boots.
