Ever Experienced This?

I'll start by saying that one of the few things I'm good at in this life is planning.

This past Sunday (6/15 Father's Day) the weather in the Whites was off and on rain with a few breaks of sun. On a rainy day I like to do a waterfall hike and I think the Glen Ellis Falls is one of the best for that. After seeing the falls and spending some time there the weather started to clear. I decided to go across the street where you can pick up the Davis Path. So after pulling out my compass and trail map I started up. Along the way came a downpour and since I had my young son with me I decided to head back to the trailhead.

Now the good part...As I am almost at the trailhead I see this young well dressed couple starting to head up to the Davis Path with the woman pushing a baby carriage! I stopped and stared in amazement which prompted her to ask me if she could get a carriage up the trail I asked her if she knew anything about the Davis Path and (not to my surprise) she and her husband told me they didn't. I told her it was steep, rocky and at the time slippery due to weather conditions. As I looked in the baby carriage I saw what looked to be a baby which couldn't have been any more than a month or two old. I explained to her that her baby could get hurt and she might want to try this trail some other time. These folks also weren't dressed for hiking and had no trail map, GPS or compass. So what did they do? They park the baby carriage at the trailhead, she puts the baby over her shoulder and they start up the trail in the rain. All I could do was shake my head and hope for the best.

Have any of you ever come across a situation like this that you'd care to discuss? I hate to discourage people from hiking but common sense needs to prevail. I think people should do some planning before hiking. With trail maps, compass and all the data available online about hiking trails I see no excuse for this lack of planning. And above all use common sense when a baby is involved.

I saw a VERY young (less than 1 month) baby on the trail once, (Equinox, 3000' of elevation gain), where the woman was carrying the child on her chest in a baby carrier thing. It was a nice day and the 2 appeared to be experienced hikers. They had already made it well up the mountain. I did not have a problem with the situation.

But what you describe sounds a little extreme!

My take on situations like this is ... most people will figure it out for themselves, and quickly discover the inappropriateness of their footwear or equipment. Overall, when I encounter a situation like this I just try to act friendly, and not offer advice unless it's specially requested, which happens only occasionally.

The only exception to this is if I perceive they're in danger. But, simply the act of wearing loafers or pushing a baby carriage - that to me isn't dangerous either to them or those in their care.

Another example - in some remote areas of the country people when driving are strongly advised to carry water (like in Southwest) and food, blankets and emergency gear in remote parts of the northern plains. Yet, if troopers stopped and asked if you had these things most would consider that grossly intrusive.

While I believe we all have a strong responsibility to each other, I believe part of that responsibility is to allow others to make mistakes and therefore learn by them. Personally, I sometimes find this hard to do, but it's something I strive towards.

About a month ago I was hiking up the Beaver Brook Trail on Moosilauke and encountered a couple carrying their baby in a baby carrier. They both looked fit and the wife was the one carrying the baby. Neither one had traction gear or poles. About a ¼ mile passed the cascades the monorail began. It was very slippery and I had a difficult time staying on the center. I forgot to carry my crampons so after about an hour of balancing on the monorail my annoyance meter pegged and I turned around.

I wanted to say something to them about placing their child in harms way if she slipped and fell, yet they didn’t look like the type who would take criticism well so I kept my mouth shut. My impression of them is that they were an active couple who felt that the birth of a child shouldn’t interfere with their outdoor activities. I understand this is a gross generalization on my part, yet I would bet the farm that is their attitude with respect to their child.

WhiteMTHike said:

I told her it was steep, rocky and at the time slippery due to weather conditions. As I looked in the baby carriage I saw what looked to be a baby which couldn't have been any more than a month or two old. I explained to her that her baby could get hurt and she might want to try this trail some other time.

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The baby doesn't make a choice. In this particular context, you made the right one, trying to dissuade its parents. If they're alone, they get my advice if they ask, and my silent best wishes if they don't.

Agree very much with KR and Sardog1.

MadRiver said:

About a month ago I was hiking up the Beaver Brook Trail on Moosilauke and encountered a couple carrying their baby in a baby carrier. They both looked fit and the wife was the one carrying the baby. Neither one had traction gear or poles. About a ¼ mile passed the cascades the monorail began. It was very slippery and I had a difficult time staying on the center. I forgot to carry my crampons so after about an hour of balancing on the monorail my annoyance meter pegged and I turned around.

I wanted to say something to them about placing their child in harms way if she slipped and fell, yet they didn’t look like the type who would take criticism well so I kept my mouth shut. My impression of them is that they were an active couple who felt that the birth of a child shouldn’t interfere with their outdoor activities. I understand this is a gross generalization on my part, yet I would bet the farm that is their attitude with respect to their child.

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What type is that?

dug said:

What type is that?

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One who exudes an air of arrogance. If you have ever played a team sport you will know the type.

I once watched a man push his baby & carriage up the entire Delicate Arch trail (3 miles round trip) in Arches NP when it was like 98 degrees. I was so amazed I took a picture of it - I'll have to try to find it!

Kevin Rooney said:

My take on situations like this is ... most people will figure it out for themselves, and quickly discover the inappropriateness of their footwear or equipment. Overall, when I encounter a situation like this I just try to act friendly, and not offer advice unless it's specially requested, which happens only occasionally.

The only exception to this is if I perceive they're in danger. But, simply the act of wearing loafers or pushing a baby carriage - that to me isn't dangerous either to them or those in their care.

...

While I believe we all have a strong responsibility to each other, I believe part of that responsibility is to allow others to make mistakes and therefore learn by them. Personally, I sometimes find this hard to do, but it's something I strive towards.

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Exactly!

In the course of our very brief honeymoon 40 years ago this September, on a crisp morning Mrs. Grumpy and I drove up the toll road and clambered up The Nose atop Mt. Mansfield in Vermont. This would be quite unremarkable, except that Dear Pretty G. was very inappropriately geared up to tackle the fairly steep open rock, dressed as she was in a straight skirt and slick leather soled penny loafers. We probably did not look especially "fit," either, both being inclined to the "chunky" end of the body-type scale.

Guaranteed, though, had some twit decided to tell us we should not ascend The Nose that day because of our garb and body shapes, he/she probably would have been told to mind his/her own business and bugger off.

Some things, my friend, are not your business, and your thoughts on them are best kept to yourself. Making snap judgments about other people's fitness to be on a given trail, based on their appearance, is an example. Proceed with circumspection.

This topic comes up fairly often. I understand the impulse to be "helpful." But sometimes being helpful is to bite one's lip and allow folks the dignity of realizing the error of their ways on their own. Not everybody who does what you or I perceive as foolish things is a fool.

G.

Grumpy said:

I understand the impulse to be "helpful." But sometimes being helpful is to bite one's lip and allow folks the dignity of realizing the error of their ways on their own. Not everybody who does what you or I perceive as foolish things is a fool.

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Excellently stated...and some of us have learned the "bite one's lip" the hard way.

KR & Grumpy put it well. Grumpy's story brings to mind a conversation that I had with my hiking partner on Mt. Mansfield.

A small segment of our hike brought us from the Cliff House up the short, North end of the Cliff Trail to the summit ridge. Hiking along this section of the Cliff Trail, I recalled past conversations with summit stewards who had told of tourists hiking to the Chin from the Gondola in high-heals (there are some rocky scrambles in places with a couple of iron rungs). The stewards had implied that these tourist-hikers were ill-equipped and inexperienced. In other words, not very 'core, perhaps even the opposite of 'core.

My hiking partner and I concluded that these summit stewards could not be further from the truth. Few things are more 'core than scrambling up a rocky, steep trail in high-heals.

If you think a baby might be in danger from his parents poor judgement, a warning to the parents is in order--even if it might mean getting told to 'bug off". They possibly might consider your advice shortly afterwards and this could save the baby some harm. Of course your tone in giving the advice might be a critical factor in their decision to take this advice.

skibones said:

If you think a baby might be in danger from his parents poor judgement, a warning to the parents is in order--even if it might mean getting told to 'bug off". They possibly might consider your advice shortly afterwards and this could save the baby some harm. Of course your tone in giving the advice might be a critical factor in their decision to take this advice.

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Well said. I think we are under some obligation to say something to somebody who is putting themselves or others at risk. But, as in all verbal communication, the message itself has to packaged so that it is palatable -- tactful, diplomatic, humble, etc. Nobody likes to be told they are wrong by a stranger; the defense mechanism makes them even more likely to press on. Especially if it's a man with a woman, you can't say anything that might offend the man's ego.

Once, on a classic, "80s-in-the-valley, still-snow-in-the-mountains" spring day, I came across a couple hiking up in their sneakers and shorts, while I was hiking down in boots, gaiters, long pants, fleece jacket, and hat, and said something in our brief conversation like, "yeah, it got pretty chilly along the ridge, and the snow is still deep in places." They looked at my clothing, then up at the mountain, and promptly headed back down.

WhiteMTHike said:

I asked her if she knew anything about the Davis Path and (not to my surprise) she and her husband told me they didn't. I told her it was steep, rocky and at the time slippery due to weather conditions. As I looked in the baby carriage I saw what looked to be a baby which couldn't have been any more than a month or two old. I explained to her that her baby could get hurt and she might want to try this trail some other time. These folks also weren't dressed for hiking and had no trail map, GPS or compass. So what did they do? They park the baby carriage at the trailhead, she puts the baby over her shoulder and they start up the trail in the rain. All I could do was shake my head and hope for the best.

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IMHO you did the right thing.
Having worked for years in a trauma center, I have witnessed way too many horrific accidents/deaths involving children of all ages as a direct result of a parents serious lack of judgment, ignorance, or neglect.
This puts me in a position where I cannot turn a blind eye to something this bogus.
I do get involved trying to use all the diplomacy, care and
concern I can muster, but if someone chooses to curse me, I can deal with it. Hopefully, they will come to their senses sooner than later. (I just pretend I am at work. )
I would rather experience a few moments of personal discomfort on a hike than deal with the guilt I would feel for a long time to come, if I heard on the news that something really bad happened to adult or child and I chose to not get involved. Maybe I could not prevent it, but at the very least I can live with myself because I tried.
I also appreciate that I have made lots of mistakes in my own hiking career. I will always be very grateful to the experienced hikers who took the time to share words of wisdom with me when the situation presented itself. And that it did....on many more than one occasion. Each day is a new opportunity to learn.

You did the right thing in offering advice when they asked you. The same thing happened to me over Memorial Day weekend in the Adirondacks this year. Seth and I just came down Wright Mountain and there was a guy with two girls all of the age of seven or eight. The father I presume looked at us and said you really need those things on your legs (gaitors). I told him there is a lot of snow heading up Algonquin and that they might want to rethink going up. They were in shorts and all had sneakers on. The poor little girls feet already looked soaked.

He took my advice and then said well we will try it what do you think girls. They all seemed in good spirits and made there way to the top in the slushy snow. We met them on top and I heard one of the girls tell her father that her feet were cold. Sometimes you just have to shake your head but as what was already stated some people need to learn things their way.

I had a couple minutes this afternoon with Justin Preisendorfer, WMNF Snow Ranger at Tuckerman's, who was on his way up the MWAR for some " interpretive and educational " duty today. As he signed himself in amid the chaos of tourists, bikers and the famous " foot race" crowd, I mentionedto him that it was the first day of summer and the silly season has just begun.

Oh no, he said. Yes this is the first day of summer, BUT Silly Season started LAST weekend.

If you haven't been to the MWO Observers Comments lately, have a peek at

this page

and scroll down to Mike Finnegan's Obs Comment for Sunday June 15th.

I'll place a footnote to Mike's comment. Those 3 hikers who stranded themselves on the summit of Mt Washington last weekend capped off their adventure by hitch-hiking a ride down the mountain, from total strangers, in the open bed of a Toyota Tacoma pick-up truck ( registered in Florida), which was already at the max passenger/load capacity up-bound.

The kind ( ?) soul who brought them down will be visiting a brake shop sooner than anticipated ( hot brakes really stink). I hope they have a Midas Guarantee,.

People are fun. Silly season is officially open.


Breeze

One fall day about four years ago, my sister and I and our kids were coming down Willard at dusk. We passed an elderly gentleman, perhaps late-70's to 80, who was very well dressed (suit and tie, leather dress shoes, etc.). He asked us how far it was to the top. We told him it was still quite a ways up (he was a bit beyond the brook crossing, which, judging from the still-clean condition of his clothes/shoes, he had managed to navigate fairly well). We were concerned about him, but not inclined to criticize or coerce. There was only one other car in the parking lot when we returned -- a newish Cadillac -- so when we got home, we called Troop F and asked them to check to make sure that the car, and presumably the hiker, were gone.

JJHikes said:

One fall day about four years ago, my sister and I and our kids were coming down Willard at dusk. We passed an elderly gentleman, perhaps late-70's to 80, who was very well dressed (suit and tie, leather dress shoes, etc.). He asked us how far it was to the top. We told him it was still quite a ways up (he was a bit beyond the brook crossing, which, judging from the still-clean condition of his clothes/shoes, he had managed to navigate fairly well). We were concerned about him, but not inclined to criticize or coerce. There was only one other car in the parking lot when we returned -- a newish Cadillac -- so when we got home, we called Troop F and asked them to check to make sure that the car, and presumably the hiker, were gone.

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That reminds me of a Winter hike we lead to Panther last year. There were 2 gentlemen about 1 mile up the trail when we were coming down. They were both wearing suits, outer coats, top hats, and dress shoes! It was not exactly a nice weather day either!

...and sometimes advice is appreciated.

I remember about ten years ago, we were taking an early winter hike up to Arethusa Falls where we met an older couple and struck up a conversation with them. I told them we were headed towards Frankenstein Cliffs but they (very politely) advised me that at this time of year, the cliffs were likely very slippery and dangerous.

It sounded like sane, rational advice from a couple that (at that time) were more knowledgeable and experienced than I was, so we gratefully accepted their advice and turned back. Sometimes a word to the wise is sufficeint.


bob