PBS/NOVA Show -Deadly Ascent

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HughK

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Channel 2 in Boston is showing on Tuesday, 1/17 at 8:00 pm, Deadly Ascent.
It examines the dangers of combining extreme cold with altitude and why some get sick but others don't.

<http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/denali/>

Looks like the nova site has some interesting additions about Denali.
Have they showed this before?

HughK.
 
Havent seen it before but that doesnt mean anything (dont watch much of the tube). Did get a chance to check it out last night and it was very informative. Pretty crazy experiments as well....almost mad scientist-like! :p
 
I thought this was really good - well worth watching - shows what determination, skill and hard work it is to climb this mountain. A few people on VFTT have climbed denali and my hat will always be off to them :)
 
I thought it was a great show! not just a testosterone hollywood climbing movie...

very interesting from a science point of view, too. I was amazed at the temperature pills. I had never heard of such things before, but it makes perfect sense.

if you didn't get to see the show last night, I highly recommend catching one of the other times.

spencer
 
I also thought the show was informative and worth watching. Sure does get cold up there. Very interesting to see different people's bodies respond differently to the conditions.
 
Speaking of Denali, Jon Krakauer wrote a great story called "Club Denali". I just read it, then re-read it. Insanely tough mountain! No wearing jeans there!
 
Excellent film. Since I have had Raynaud's I have noticed that my entire body is ultra sensitive to cold, not just digits/toes.
This really brought home temperature variations in individuals and the consequences of these fluctuations. How quickly your body and judgment can become impaired.
I was thinking of the recent Breadload rescue and how cold and frightened those hikers must have been to call 911.
It seems that once that line is crossed (hypo/hypethermia) it just escalates and reversing it becomes increasingly more difficult if not impossible to accomplish without help.
 
Maddy said:
It seems that once that line is crossed (hypo/hypethermia) it just escalates and reversing it becomes increasingly more difficult if not impossible to accomplish without help.
Click to expand...
Once your body temp gets below about 90F, the body gives up and the victim stops shivering. At this point, the victim is on an irreversible slide toward death and external heat is now required to save him.


From Wilkerson, "Medicine for Mountaineering":
Stages of hypothermia:

* Mild

98-95F (37-35C)
Sensations of chilliness, skin numbness, minor impairment in muscular performance, particularly in fine movements with the hands, shivering begins.

95-93F (35-34C)
More obvious incoordination and weakness; stumbling, slow pace; mild confusion and apathy

93-90F (34-32C)
Gross incoordination with frequent stumbiling, falling, and inability to use hands; mental sluggishness with slow thought and speech; retrograde amnesia

* Severe

90-86F (32-30C)
Cessation of shivering; severe incoordination with stiffness and inability to walk or stand; incoherence, confusion, irrationality

86-82F (30-28C)
Severe muscular rigidity; semiconsciousness; dilation of pupils; inapparent heartbead or respirations

Below 82F (below 28C)
Unconsciousness; eventually death due to cessation of heart action at temps around 68F (20C) or below.
Click to expand...

Doug
 
I found the show a bit disappointing. The photography was up to NG's usual high standards, but the information content was a bit light for my taste. The high-tech gadgets are interesting and great research tools, but unavailable to (and therefore usless to) mountaineers-at-large. I would have liked to have seen a bit more info on hypothermia and altitude acclimatization and preventing problems from them.

One should also note that Colby Coombs and his wife <name?> are both experienced Alaskan mountaineers. It is quite possible that their reduced temp ranges compared to that of the astronaut <name?> were due to training rather than their body makeups.

Just my opinion and YMMV.

Doug
 
I agree with Doug about some of that but I think they made a point that they weren't encouraging average Joe's to run out and try it themselves. They even mentioned how some people have an easy time of it, go home and tell their friends, and then teh friends get into trouble when conditions aren't ideal.

If they had made it more of a how-to, they'd be opening themselves up to that same criticism.

spencer
 
DougPaul said:
I found the show a bit disappointing. The photography was up to NG's usual high standards, but the information content was a bit light for my taste. The high-tech gadgets are interesting and great research tools, but unavailable to (and therefore usless to) mountaineers-at-large. I would have liked to have seen a bit more info on hypothermia and altitude acclimatization and preventing problems from them.
shape
One should also note that Colby Coombs and his wife <name?> are both experienced Alaskan mountaineers. It is quite possible that their reduced temp ranges compared to that of the astronaut <name?> were due to training rather than their body makeups.

Just my opinion and YMMV.

Doug
Click to expand...

while I enjoyed the show - doug - I did think the same about the training/in better shape aspect. Its pretty much a fact - the better shape your in - the better you are in the mountains and the space dude - (while probably in awesome shape for the average joe non guide) - was not in as good of shape as the guides. when you guide for a living - pretty tough to get to that level by working the desk weekdays and getting out on weekend - for the most part. I thought it certainlly had to do with that at least partly.

I liked seeing what the body does in those temps. I mean - the whites aren't denali - but we do get temps kind of like that - nice to see what happens - and the importance of keeping the engine running and keeping the warmth in thru insulation, etc..

thumbs up!!
 
Giggy, Spencer,

I guess that my disappointment is that they open up an interesting issue and then don't give much useful info.

Of course I'm aware that I know far more about the subject than the average viewer, but it might have been a good place to slip in a few tips for novice winter/altitude hikers.

Certainly the show was enjoyable, but perhaps I was just left wanting more.

Doug
 
giggy said:
while I enjoyed the show - doug - I did think the same about the training/in better shape aspect. Its pretty much a fact - the better shape your in - the better you are in the mountains and the space dude - (while probably in awesome shape for the average joe non guide) - was not in as good of shape as the guides. when you guide for a living - pretty tough to get to that level by working the desk weekdays and getting out on weekend - for the most part. I thought it certainlly had to do with that at least partly.

I liked seeing what the body does in those temps. I mean - the whites aren't denali - but we do get temps kind of like that - nice to see what happens - and the importance of keeping the engine running and keeping the warmth in thru insulation, etc..

thumbs up!!
Click to expand...

I just thought of it as very preliminary to other research. The show didn't claim to have many answers but did establish differences which could (and probably will) be studied further.
 
Last edited:
giggy said:
I did think the same about the training/in better shape aspect. Its pretty much a fact - the better shape your in - the better you are in the mountains and the space dude - (while probably in awesome shape for the average joe non guide) - was not in as good of shape as the guides. when you guide for a living - pretty tough to get to that level by working the desk weekdays and getting out on weekend - for the most part. I thought it certainlly had to do with that at least partly.
Click to expand...
The info that I have seen says that physical fitness does not help altitude aclimatization. (One can certainly do more if fit, but is doesn't seem to protect against AMS, HAPE, HACE, etc. In fact, it may encourage one to ascend too fast.) The astronaut descended because of impending HAPE.

What I meant about training was not physical fitness, but how to handle one's self in the cold and altidude. For instance, did the astronaut reduce his insulation as he warmed up? Did he increase it the moment he stopped? Experienced cold weather folks just do this automatically, but less experienced folks may need to be reminded or wait until they overheat or get cold to do something.

And, of course, guides are a self-selected group--if they don't do well in the cold and altitude (for whatever reason), they tend to find other things to do.

Doug
 
spencer said:
I was amazed at the temperature pills. I had never heard of such things before, but it makes perfect sense.
Click to expand...


I thought the pills were extremely cool. I used to work for a Brown University research lab and we studied adolescent circadian rhythms and sleep. We measured core body temperature using rectal thermometers (flexible, small, but I can't imagine wearing one for several hours).

This is a big improvement!
 
Overall, I wasn't that impressed with the show. Yeah, the thermometer pills were nifty, but there just wasn't enough data to really draw any conclusions.... or at least they didn't talk about anything else... Like, what is the temperature of a marathon runner throughout the race.... What about 20 of them? Does it vary much from person to person?

I think that most of the information they gave is known by most people around 'here' as well.

Still, I'm glad I watched it.
 
I think we are being too critical. It was a show put on for masses. if it's scientific data you seek, read the primary literature. advice received from elsewhere is used at your own risk.

I don't look to the nature channel when I want info on trees and you shouldn't look to NOVA when you want info on body temp at high altitudes. what it showed us is that there is a doctor out there who is working on this issue. Now go use medline and find out what he's published.

then report back here with a synopsis :D

spencer
 
DougPaul said:
I guess that my disappointment is that they open up an interesting issue and then don't give much useful ... Certainly the show was enjoyable, but perhaps I was just left wanting more.
Doug
Click to expand...
I have similar sentiments although I feel I learned quite a bit about the physiology of altitude sickness. The thing I'd be interested in learning more about is whether they determined the correlation between lung function, fitness, health etc. and the effects of rarified oxygen. That could certainly help predict better who might have a problem and at what altitude ... not that most of us will ever summit the likes of Denali but 10-15,000 footers are reasonable goals not without the possibility of a reaction to the altitude.

There was a website mentioned for further information and what sounded like a self test. Anyone visit that?
 
spencer said:
I think we are being too critical. It was a show put on for masses.
Click to expand...
I realize that, and that is sort of what I was implying. It is a show made for the masses, and as such, there was really nothing new for me, and probably most of you.

It was light entertainment, not information.
 
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The question that came to my mind was:

Did the large variation of core temperature from 'normal' help to cause the altitude sickness or did the altitude help to cause the large variations from 'normal' core temperature?

It would have been interesting to put the same astronaut through the same sort of physical stresses at a much lower altitude with very cold conditions. It would also have been interesting to take the husband and wife team from a low altitude and drop them at 14,000 feet and see if they had similar or dissimilar temperature swings during their exertions. I would assume that the pair would exhibit AMS symptoms in this latter scenario.

All in all, an enjoyable and thought provoking show.

JohnL
 
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