Missing hiker found

[David Metsky]

<mod hat>
Let's try and keep our speculation out of the realm of slander and accusation, OK? Remember these are real people.

 

[Hikes4fun]

My feeling is, who the hell cares? Dude went in the woods, got lost and eventually got out. He might have had too much in his pack. Why speculate what his I.Q. is or why did he have so many screws or why no snow shoes. Who cares? If you want to take snowshoes in April, May, June, July or August, who cares? Take them. These threads turn into endless and nearly useless discussions of nearly blind speculation about the dude's motives and his expertise, was he well equipped, did he go the right way etc. Yet, if this guy was caught in the bottom of a pit toilet people would just assume he's weird, sick and disgusting -- no further discussion. There's a double standard going on in these threads...

-Dr. Wu

Thank You..I usually don't get involved in these discussions..on any of the forums...but it does amuse to some extent as I watch the hiking elite circle the carcass.

 

[giggy]

Thank You..I usually don't get involved in these discussions..on any of the forums...but it does amuse to some extent as I watch the hiking elite circle the carcass.

haha, kinda true, the only think is IMO, its actually not the hiking elite - but rather those that have been hiking for a short period of time, maybe completed a list, do AMC type hikes with bring everything but the kitchen sink with you- (nothing wrong with that, but they aren't everyones' cup of tea) and all of a sudden think they know everything.

I will just end by saying in regards to snowshoes, I have noticed a difference in opinon by climbers and hikers. Most hikers love snowshoes and can't fathom anyone not wearing them and bringing them. Most climbers that I know don't like them- consider them a pain in the arse, extra gear, large gear hanging off a pack when climbing, and will stick to terrain where they are not needed, (pack trails, climbing routes, alpine, etc etc..)

its a chance ones takes not bring them. I really don't care what people do - this guy got some bad luck while trying to do the right thing by training.

shite happens... what ya gonna do...?

 

[Waumbek]

Note that he had basically self rescued before he was found while resting a short distance from the road.

Doug

Doesn't matter how close to the end you are, if your friends and relatives call you in missing, you're a rescue responsible and accountable for having mobilized public resources. People don't seem to get that.

 

[giggy]

Doesn't matter how close to the end you are, if your friends and relatives call you in missing, you're a rescue responsible and accountable for having mobilized public resources. People don't seem to get that.

Waumbek, I hear what your saying, but this costing folks money argument bothers me a bit - and of course I will tell you why

my guess is this guy (and many like him) will cost the tax payer less money in the long run becuase they are healthy, in good shape, etc..

Hikers/climbers/Skiers for the most part are driven, succesful people that are not a drag on society. My guess is he is not on welfare, doesn't become a public money suck on housing and state funded health insurance, he is likely not overweight, doesn't smoke. so the 10K (or whatever) is spent on this fellow is money well spent because chances are, he will be healthier in the long haul due to being in shape.

drive through depressed areas and everyone seems overweight, smoking, and never at work (how about that early monring line at the boston meth clinic??) and I will bet most are some sort of "public" assistance costing taxpayer way more than probably all the rescues combined. I realize there is legit use of these social programs...but just trying to make a point.

my guess is the small amout of money spent on mountain rescues is lots less than the bill we flip these other things.

Hobbies keep people focused and enjoying life. People hiking the mountains is a good thing for society. For the amount of people that hike in the whites, I think rescues are rare and "shite happens".

 

[sli74]

haha, kinda true, the only think is IMO, its actually not the hiking elite - but rather those that have been hiking for a short period of time, maybe completed a list, do AMC type hikes with bring everything but the kitchen sink with you- (nothing wrong with that, but they aren't everyones' cup of tea) and all of a sudden think they know everything.

I definitely don't know everything, sometimes I know next to nothing AND I carry everything but the kitchen sink but I would hardly call myself a novice hiker or one who just goes on a few AMC trips. It isn't just novice hikers who think they know everything who believe he should have had snowshoes on the kind of trip he was on.

I don't know if I am misreading what you are saying and I very well could be but I am a fairly experienced hiker, who carries "everything but the kitchen sink" and thinks it is a crazy decision to go into the woods in winter, particularly one with as much snow as we've had, without snowshoes. It is not uncommon to get turned around and end up off the 2 foot width of packed path and into snow that is 15 feet deep. I would personally feel irresponsible if I didn't carry snowshoes on a trip such as the one he was on.
Maybe I am not experienced enough to be allowed this opinion or maybe it causes people to think I am being elitist but that doesn't change the fact that I think it.

I will just end by saying in regards to snowshoes, I have noticed a difference in opinon by climbers and hikers. Most hikers love snowshoes and can't fathom anyone not wearing them and bringing them. Most climbers that I know don't like them- consider them a pain in the arse, extra gear, large gear hanging off a pack when climbing, and will stick to terrain where they are not needed, (pack trails, climbing routes, alpine, etc etc..)

Here I think I agree with you . . . what are the chances, huh?
I will probably always consider myself a hiker . . . a climber I don't think I will ever be. The two groups definitely have a different set of opinions and a different mentality in more ways than just this. Good point!!!

 

[MadRiver]

"little" black dress dry-cleaned

Coco Chanel would be proud.

 

[Waumbek]

Waumbek, I hear what your saying, but this costing folks money argument bothers me a bit - and of course I will tell you why

my guess is this guy (and many like him) will cost the tax payer less money in the long run becuase they are healthy, in good shape, etc..

Hikers/climbers/Skiers for the most part are driven, succesful people that are not a drag on society. My guess is he is not on welfare, doesn't become a public money suck on housing and state funded health insurance, he is likely not overweight, doesn't smoke. so the 10K (or whatever) is spent on this fellow is money well spent because chances are, he will be healthier in the long haul due to being in shape.

drive through depressed areas and everyone seems overweight, smoking, and never at work (how about that early monring line at the boston meth clinic??) and I will bet most are some sort of "public" assistance costing taxpayer way more than probably all the rescues combined. I realize there is legit use of these social programs...but just trying to make a point.

my guess is the small amout of money spent on mountain rescues is lots less than the bill we flip these other things.

Hobbies keep people focused and enjoying life. People hiking the mountains is a good thing for society. For the amount of people that hike in the whites, I think rescues are rare and "shite happens".

I'd want to see some empirical, actuarial proof that hikers are healthier than the general population. Sounds good, but is it really true?

If you don't want to be billed for rescues, it's obvious what you need to do. Plain as dirt. Map, compass, etc. The list is there. If your friends and relatives call you in, you ARE going to be evaluated for whether or not you did so. Don't want to be evaluated or criticized? Tell the spouse, friends, parents, kids, etc., not to report you missing and self-rescue.

 

[Neil]

I'd want to see some empirical, actuarial proof that hikers are healthier than the general population. Sounds good, but is it really true?

Empirical "proof" is what Giggy's dishing up, or opining. Unequivocal scientific proof? Fuhgettabout it. Too many variables and anyway someone else can always come up with some other study that says what they want it to say.

But it's a safe bet that unemployed drug addicts on the dole, fer instance, are more of a burden on society's resources than us hard working hiking stiffs (no pun intended).

OTOH, in an individual case it's not much of a defense re: the costs of rescue.

 

[Dave Bear]

Sounds to me like this fellow might as well have brought the kitchen sink. Thirty pounds of ice screws and 350 rope is enough weight to gravitate you to the gulf and certainly enough rope to lynch yourself. As warm as it has been he could have had 60lb of practical weight and carried water for the expendable weight if he was training.

Its great that he made it out but certainly plenty of points to pick up on the learning curve. I did like some of the Salem paper's account from him of the Dry River under these conditions. Would be an interesting whack through there in deep winter with time and more practical essentials. As long as some press keeps touting experience helping these folks out of the woods alive it keeps the negative perceptions a little lower by the non-hikers. As I once said before we should graciously make some donations directly to S&A for there support of our pasttime and the efforts these events force them to endure!

 

[BlackBuffalo]

Thank You..I usually don't get involved in these discussions..on any of the forums...but it does amuse to some extent as I watch the hiking elite circle the carcass.

Man, you nailed it. Right on!!

 

[Stan]

As I read Giggy's post I kind of agree with the notion that the cost of rescues of people who are healthy and active is probably small compared to the long term social cost, namely healthcare, of people who don't keep themselves in reasonable condition. Of course, this makes a number of assumptions, the falsity of which could blow this theory out of the water.

... still, it has a very intuitive appeal but it's fair that the likes of Waumbek or Doug Paul are skeptical ...

One thing it does not consider is that fit people are often the first to suffer the consequences of hypothermia because, with less body fat, they have less insulation and less energy reserve.

I also agree that climbers and hikers are different: different goals, different styles, different equipment.

What I don't agree with is any underlying suggestion that one is superior to the other in any way, or that hiking is superior to other activities, or that the people who engage in certain activities enjoy some advantage in fitness, health, good looks, balls, or chutzpah ... and, unfortunately, this holier than thou sense sometimes comes across.

 

[Waumbek]

Well, my "empirical" observation is that while it's a good idea to stay fit, active, and so forth, particularly if it keeps you off the streets and out of the meth clinics, one's health--and consequent use of resources--is pretty much a crap shoot. I do, however, notice the number of hikers on this board who complain about or admit to being overweight. (Who's done that poll lately?) And think how many joint replacements we could avoid if people swam rather than hiked. Stan nailed it--there's nothing superior about hiking or hikers and no special social good that gives us a pass when it comes to rescues.

Hikers do probably spend more money on this hobby than a swimmer spends on swimming if the gear discussions on VFTT are any measure. Right now, spending money is a social good although most of it probably goes abroad. But still, no reason for a pass when it comes to rescues.

If you don't want to be rescued, hence evaluated, don't leave an itinerary.

 

[Tim Seaver]

I do, however, notice the number of hikers on this board who complain about or admit to being overweight. (Who's done that poll lately?) And think how many joint replacements we could avoid if people swam rather than hiked.

I am not familiar with the stats on hikers needing joint replacement, but there is plenty of research indicating obesity for the same. Put them together, and .....?

Obesity boosts risk of joint replacement

In 2005, 24% of the general population was obese, whereas 52.1% of arthroplasty patients were obese.

(sorry for the drift, but...)

 

[Dave Bear]

Tim its not all drift. Due to my love for food and eating I can't afford to consider some hikes without at least bringing along my snowshoes. You know its that force divided by area crap that'll get ya everytime! Even the tailend of this hike out to the Highland Center could have been a leg breaker with some spring melt. I weigh more than I should and pack more than I should so either I need to bring the snowshoes as an essential for certain trails or get bigger feet!

 

[Waumbek]

I am not familiar with the stats on hikers needing joint replacement, but there is plenty of research indicating obesity for the same. Put them together, and .....?

Obesity boosts risk of joint replacement

In 2005, 24% of the general population was obese, whereas 52.1% of arthroplasty patients were obese.

(sorry for the drift, but...)

Tim, I really don't know either. It's easy to add 2 and 2 and get 5 when you try to figure out whether one's health is more a crap shoot (heredity, luck, etc.) or a direct consequence of actions. Every new study "proves" the last one wrong. I can't see basing rescue policies on the activity involved because one (hiking) is supposedly healthier than others. We still have far too primitive an idea of what promotes health.

That's not really the point anyway. If you request public resources like rescue service, you will be scrutinized. Tell them not to call you in missing if you don't want to be evaluated. If you really want to do your own thing, then do it. No whining. OK, having repeated this three times now, I'm outta this one, you'll be glad to hear.

 

[Tim Seaver]

I can't see basing rescue policies on the activity involved because one (hiking) is supposedly healthier than others.

I think what Giggy was trying to say ( if this what you are referring to) is that overall, the cost of rescuing a handful of people (who otherwise are presumably not a drain on society's coffers) from various misadventures in the woods is dwarfed by the cost of other programs which could also be characterized as wasteful and a direct result of people's ( irresponsible, stupid, inappropriate, reckless, insert your favorite derisive word here) choices.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that hikers get any special treatment, just that we consider the cost of other "bailouts" for human misbehavior that we are footing the bill for on a daily basis, before we launch an online assault.

But that isn't nearly as entertaining or easy as criticizing some poor sap stuck out in the woods, is it?

 

[Neil]

Referring to overweight hikers:

Of course this is just speculation but I would think that a hiker would self-report himself as being overweight with only 10-20 pounds of excess adipose tissue.

The obese of America (and Canada too) that are being referred to as a burden on health care resources are often frickin huge . You know, the ones that waddle upon broken-down feet towards the chips and ice cream aisles.

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

I'd want to see some empirical, actuarial proof that hikers are healthier than the general population. Sounds good, but is it really true?

Along that line, here's a link that was given in another thread running in General Backcountry:http://www.miller-mccune.com/health/for-good-health-take-a-hike-796

 

[David Metsky]

<Mod Hat>
OK, we've drifted way afield from the missing hiking in question. If you'd like to continue the discussion of this particular lost then found hiker, please feel free to do so in this thread. If you'd like to discuss public policy towards rescue, please start another thread in the appropriate forum. If you'd like to discuss health care policy, please start another thread on an appropriate message board. (Hint: not this one)
</Mod Hat>