Musings about the Highland center

[wardsgirl]

And Chapter 2- Gary Moody: The Man, The Legend, The Log Cabin Builder

 

[skiguy]

I think what you're doing is great, but it is only one aspect of the AMC.

KDT

As is the HC or Pinkham. If you want to leave the Cosby Twins in the "O de twa" of the Porky Gulch or the "sa wayfarer" of the HC that's your choice. That's the Beauty of America...we have choices; but with that we must respect each others choices. With that respect comes the ability to have choices....except at Lincoln Woods...ya better use the privey and not the snowbank.

 

[psmart]

I will say that they do maintain many, but certainly not any where near all, of the trails that I hike.
KDT

The AMC maintains approximately 450 miles of the 1400 miles of hiking trails in the WMNF, although the USFS has ultimate responsibility for all the trails.

 

[John H Swanson]

Hmmmm...we were there the summers of 2004, 2005, and 2006. We stayed in a handful each time-- and there were roughly the same cost as what we pay for the AMC huts here now.

And I have to disagree with you...Rifigio Lagazuoi is the best, at least of the ones we stayed...

When I lived in France I was a member of the Club Alpin Francais and they offered their members a 50% discount on lodging. The retail price was comparable to the AMC but as a member I got a sweet discount. I was disappointed that the AMC was not similarly motivated to offer a significant discount to their members. IMO the club should benefit the members.

Lagazuoi was nice (it's hard not to be nice with that view) but Laverella was by far more friendly.

 

[TrishandAlex]

When I lived in France I was a member of the Club Alpin Francais and they offered their members a 50% discount on lodging. The retail price was comparable to the AMC but as a member I got a sweet discount. I was disappointed that the AMC was not similarly motivated to offer a significant discount to their members. IMO the club should benefit the members.

That's a great idea -- they'd probably make a lot more money that way, too. I'm guess a lot more members would stay at the huts...and the Highland Center...if there was a nice discount offered to AMC members.

 

[WhiteMTHike]

Thanks, but most people would probably be turned off by Chapter 1: "Cloth vs. Plastic Diapers."

-Dr. Wu

Just remember to leave no trace.

 

[--M.]

IMO the club should benefit the members.

The club is using resources they do not own. They are therefore operating in a public trust.

I'm not familiar with the apples from other countries, but I bet the oranges here don't taste like their apples.

Perhaps the European model is closer to the Ausable Club, which actually does own its land and therefore has more of a claim to the concept of "private property" or a club that can engage in exclusivity (whether or not those things are "good").

But the AMC runs much of its business on public land and therefore has a special relationship to the public. If I walked into Zealand Hut next Friday and the caretaker greeted me with "Welcome to AMC's corner of heaven!", I'd feel like I needed to parse.

As for the Highland Center, it's on their privately owned land, and I feel no "entitlement" whatsoever. I'm glad that they offer services and I'm even willing to pay for them.

 

[MadRiver]

I’ve read the Special Use Permit that the huts operate under as well as talked with the Ranger who oversees the Special Use Permits about what the AMC can and cannot do with respect to the public at large dealing with their huts. In short, the public has every right to use their water and bathroom facilities without being a guest. The public also have the right to seek shelter in dangerous weather. The AMC is not required to feed you, yet they cannot kick you out in dangerous weather because you are not a paying guest. If you have a problem with the hut croo, simply get their names and report them to the Ranger (I forget her name) at the Androscoggin Ranger District. They keep records of all complaints for when the Special Use Permit comes up for renewal. I’m an AMC member. It’s a love/hate thing.

 

[Guthook]

Huts...

I’ve read the Special Use Permit that the huts operate under as well as talked with the Ranger who oversees the Special Use Permits about what the AMC can and cannot do with respect to the public at large dealing with their huts. In short, the public has every right to use their water and bathroom facilities without being a guest. The public also have the right to seek shelter in dangerous weather. The AMC is not required to feed you, yet they cannot kick you out in dangerous weather because you are not a paying guest. If you have a problem with the hut croo, simply get their names and report them to the Ranger (I forget her name) at the Androscoggin Ranger District. They keep records of all complaints for when the Special Use Permit comes up for renewal. I’m an AMC member. It’s a love/hate thing.

That's interesting, MadRiver. I wonder what a lot of AT Thru-hikers would say if they knew that they shouldn't be kicked out in dangerous weather. I've met many who were booted during bad weather because they weren't paying guests. Of course, the seemingly endless animosity between AMC and AT Hikers probably contributed to this problem.

 

[weatherman]

Just from one experience, some may have to do with one's definition of dangerous weather. About 11 years ago I was at Madison Hut (not originally as a paying customer, but I later became one) in July in a severe, long sleet storm with temps in the mid 30s and winds gusting well over 70 mph. The hut staff was trying to accommodate people as well as they could, safely, and nobody was "kicked out". People who had tents and no reservations were encouraged to hike down to the Valley Way tentsites, but those who were more or less stranded were not forced to hike out. Needless to say, despite many no-shows, it was pretty busy, with a few people crashing on the picnic tables, etc. As it turned out, we had the $ with us to fork over for available bunks, and as I was hypothermic and drank an awful lot of free tea before I realized that I really was hypothermic, it was well worth it. If we had not had the $, I'm sure there were arrangements that could have been made.

I haven't stayed in a full-service hut since, but I do have good memories of the experience.

 

[MadRiver]

That's interesting, MadRiver. I wonder what a lot of AT Thru-hikers would say if they knew that they shouldn't be kicked out in dangerous weather. I've met many who were booted during bad weather because they weren't paying guests. Of course, the seemingly endless animosity between AMC and AT Hikers probably contributed to this problem.

I noticed that as well. It might stem from two problems. One, a sense of entitlement on the part of some thru-hikers and the fact that the Croos are not going to receive any tips from the thru-hikers so why bend over backwards. I stayed at Galehead in exchange for work when I was hiking with my wife’s cousin who was thru-hiking in 2004. Although they let us stay in exchange for work, the Croos were not overly friendly at first; they did come around later especially since I and Steve have a twisted sense of humor. The thru-hikers also needed a few lessons in courtesy. I had to point out to them that it wasn’t polite to just sit on a bench and watch the paying guests have dinner. I suggested rather forcefully that we adjourn to the veranda while they had dinner. Afterwards, we eat leftovers in the kitchen and then cleaned up.
One German SOB thought his work for stay involved hitting on the single women, which they didn’t seem to mind since he was good looking. So from my perspective as a non-paying guest and non-thru-hiker both parties need to show a little understanding. One incident was interesting. I was sitting outside when one of the paying guest started railing about us staying for free. I pointed to the sign on the side of the hut that explains the Special Use Permit and pointed out that work for stay was part of the Special Use Permit, which it is. Once I pointed out that we were not getting much, cold leftovers and the floor to sleep on, he calmed down and we had a nice chat. In the morning we were out of the hut by 5:00am and I dropped a 20 in the tip basket. Both sides need to chill.

The hut staff was trying to accommodate people as well as they could, safely, and nobody was "kicked out"..

A lot has to do with the individual croo and thru-hiker/non-paying guest and how they interact together. Kudos to this hut croo.

 

[Guthook]

Both sides need to chill.


A lot has to do with the individual croo and thru-hiker/non-paying guest and how they interest together. Kudos to this hut croo.

Amen to both points. One thing that bothers me the most is the gross generalizations going on with both sides. I just try to avoid that trap.

 

[--M.]

Agreed, agreed, agreed. These interactions are mini crucibles at intersection points that -- viewed statistically -- are guaranteed to create friction.

It seems it's the deeper philosophical underpinnings being debated here (watch out, or you'll hit that third rail!), but I like it anyway.

 

[Mike P.]

Question?

What is a regular hiker?????? Lizzie Bourne the 2nd fatality - a Judges daughter, Ball Crag, named after Dr. Ball Who's poor that hikes? Historically Poor people used to work six days a week & attend church on Sundays, they didn't take the train up from Boston & stay at the Crawford's Hotel (The Crawford's didn't lead non-guest up Crawford Path for nothing) or the old hotels in Randolph.

Poor people work two or three jobs & don't buy 100 boots, climbing gear & burn two tanks of gas to play. Anyone using 2nd hand ropes, cams, helmets or boots/shoes (Suburban Sand Box was well phased whoever said it)

Walking unemployed for five or six months out of work to walk in the woods isn't what poor people do either - they do learn that you can walk all day for a couple of dollars a day but it's still several 100 dollars (I'm thinking over a grand) to get your food, mail it to your self, tent, boots, bag, stove, raingear, the occasional day in town doing laundry, getting a beer & a shower, etc. The AMC predates the ATC by decades

What would the White's look like without the AMC? (Was Weeks - known for the Weeks Act - An AMC member I'll guess yes) I'm thinking Bradford Washburn was a member also, which of you hardcore types has his climbing resume? Yep, AMC just caters to the elite who can't work for the summit. (Who's starting the Goran Kropp club, bicycle to the whites & then hike, that's work, I'll tip my hat to you right now)


Could the Highland Center not cost 100 for a room, sure? A gear room in an outdoor clubs newest crown jewel facility seems like a no-brainer but they skipped that. It's been 14 years since I stayed at LOC on a summer weekend, when it sleeps just 40 or 50, maybe I'll stay again. Could dinner not be $18 sure, it is all you can eat though. I like using a modern toilet before or after a hike in Crawford Notch too.

Is it right that politicians tend to listen to the lobbyist who is in their ear the most & lobbyist don't stay in Washington for free (lobbying cost $) No but that's the system, If we elect Sherpa K or Dr. Wuu, hikers won't need to lobby politicans - sorry my closet has too many skeletons, I'm out & I'm not PC

I'm sure some of you who like to whine about the AMC catering to people with money are contributing to outdoor clubs who are talking to lawmakers in Washington to keep open spaces open & pristine. (as well as can be reasonbly be expected) You are in constant contact with Washington - it's a National Forest voicing your opinion in letters, calls & emails (Email, computers aren't free although your taxes at the public library - or prison provide do provide cheap WWW access.) Accountants, Lawyers, Doctors, etc, contribute more to lobbying efforts, they can, they also have free time to take long vacations & enjoy the outdoors. Doing work with young people is great too. 24 years at the same job, I'm getting a bunch too, I'm not sorry for that.

It's not a crime to make a decent house & a six figure income & not want to sleep in a rat hole. (the Outhouse outside the old buildings at C-Notch & a couple of other places I've stayed at might fit this description (though the banks are socialized, it's not a crime in America to have a decent income - Even a CEO earning $500,000 might afford a night or two at Chez Crawford)

Big business is talking to politicans & they ain't talking about trail maintainence, well a road, a golf course & vacation destination - okay, those are more Greylock plans -

Rant (almost) over - although I think I write once of these almost annually when the pick on the pampered at HC comes up. 30 or 40 years ago they probably said the same thing about Joe Dodge Lodge. If you want to see huts, check out some of the CO facilities. (I seem to recall Dave - our moderator had some links years ago)

And the Ausable Club, at least we can park at HC & there's no private tennis court, golf course & pool in C-Notch. (I need to figure out if I can join there at retirement with some of my 104K $ - formerly 401K, what a view they have & members still ride the bus to the lower lake)

 

[weatherman]

(Who's starting the Goran Kropp club, bicycle to the whites & then hike, that's work, I'll tip my hat to you right now)

Trail magic to the Goran Kropps of the world!!!

 

[forestgnome]

the program has helped get over 15,000 youth on outdoor trips.
I am 28 years old. The lack of perspective here is startling.

I'm not sure what you mean by claiming a lack of perspective on our part as a twenty-eight year old, but I'm glad your reading with interest.

Contradiction and hypocrisy had ought to destroy credibility, no? In the AMC literature, aren't we told that "overuse" is a big environmental crime? Too many people out there will harm the environment. Then they go about great efforts to entice hords of customers into the forest. 15,000 is a small army trampling the forest and the alpine zones. That's great for the AMC, but is that good or bad for the forest? Contradiction...

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

One instance

I held off mentioning this before, and maybe I shouldn't now either, but here goes... Now granted this is only one encounter, and I do think it is a great thing to get youths out into the mountains, but, the one occasion I ran into an AMC leader with a group of young people I was approaching the summit of Eisenhower.

It was a beautiful late spring day, the sun was shining. The trail and summit were covered in Mountain Sandwort. Here there was this large group of kids. One leader for probably 15-16 kids. As they approached the summit they started spreading out in little groups, every one of them off the trail and trampling the wildflowers. The leader didn't bat an eye. I tried in vain to attract their attention and explain to them about staying on the trail and being mindful of the growing things which have such a hard time growing on these summits. Of course I was met with rolling eyes, blank looks and some back talk. I looked at the leader who sort of looked at the ground and toed some rocks while I was talking.

OK, so whatever. That was one instance, but it stuck with me even though it was years ago. I felt the group was too large to begin with, and certainly too large for one adult to handle, and I felt he should have been making some attempt to explain the fragility of the ecosystem on these summits, as well as good stewardship.

OK. There's my rant. Whatever! Roll your eyes now!

KDT

 

[Mike P.]

Contradiction and hypocrisy had ought to destroy credibility, no? In the AMC literature, aren't we told that "overuse" is a big environmental crime? Too many people out there will harm the environment. Then they go about great efforts to entice hords of customers into the forest. 15,000 is a small army trampling the forest and the alpine zones. That's great for the AMC, but is that good or bad for the forest? Contradiction...

We could ban all users, that would be fair, or some type of quota or pass systems like getting to Whitney.

It's not really wilderness but there are plenty of places you can go to avoid the crowds if you want. (not wilderness as compared to MT, Western Canada, AK, etc.)

Even the popular places aren't bad if you go early or late in the day, weekdays or outside of the seasons. (It's getting crowded in winter compared to years ago & I've just been out here 15 or 16 years) Late April in rotting snow or November when it may feel winter-like but peakbaggers don't get winter credit (I'm a peakbagger -no slam) for it

On the extreme sides of useage, we can love it to death or not use it all. If you choose the later, expect those who see value in the timber (or mining or drilling or windmills where these maybe practical) saying, 'look, no one is using it, they won't mind' if I use it to create jobs & make money. These days, that's pretty valuable.

Kevin, that's a poor leader with a group too large to handle. luckily the weather was nice, in bad weather, the leader sound like they were in over their head.

 

[Jaytrek57]

Then they go about great efforts to entice hords of customers into the forest. 15,000 is a small army trampling the forest and the alpine zones

Um..it's spread out a little over time and different hikes.]

The AMC/YOP trains youth workers on how to take there agencies youth on outdoor adventures. It teaches basic LNT principles during their trainings/workshops. This is the program that was referenced a few post back.

Kevin J E, Poor leadership...no question. The glaring example is any youth agency that allows 1 adult staff member is asking for trouble and is against numerous basic supervision protocols and regulations (state/ACA).

Peace

 

[SkierSteve]

OK; the AMC isn't perfect (God Knows), and certainly I have been no friend to this organization. And I grant them the need to generate enough revenue to survive as a business. There business model requires a constant stream of fresh new faces experiencing the whites and wanting to help ($$).
I guess my primary complaint has always been that they are an arrogant bunch. From the time I witnessed a croo member absolutely berate a young hiker for walking in the wrong place (when a kind, informative talk would have possible made him understand what he was doing wrong), to the times I have called AMC to question a policy or practice. They couldn't care less about dissenting views or criticism.
I believe there is a point when too many people in the White's becomes too much about business and not enough about stewardship. I don't pretend to know if that point has been reached but I worry.